why all the flip flopping on john fox?

[panthers55]

Foster was averaging a whole yard more than Davis.

As for losing our QB during a critical stretch. When Jake got hurt, we were 6-6 and Jake turned the ball over 12 times in the past 8 games.

I'm not really disagreeing with you on this, but you have to admit that this is when "Fire Fox" talks started to heat up and there were reasons why. Which is why he made the gamble in the 2008 Draft.

Which is why Richardson should punish Fox/Hurney for that huge mistake. You trying to tell me we planned on playing Delhomme only 2 years on his 5-year deal? It was an incredibly stupid move when I heard about it then and it is even more stupid now. Especially after the way he was playing near the end of the season and the Arizona game. Without that extension, we are free to let him walk this year. It was poor future cap management and moreso hope that Delhomme could play for at least 3 more years. 3 mil was not worth that.

Lets condense this for brevity. First of all Foster got more carries than Davis so he got a shot but you play both because they need a rest. Why did we play Stewart last year when Williams was getting a yard more a carry? Because we needed both. Plus Davis was used in the redzone where you break off fewer runs.

Also, it's funny that a defensive-minded Head Coach like John Fox has bad defenses the past 3 seasons from this point. (2008, 2007, 2006)

You sit here and believe Matt Moore regressed all you want. He got injured and buried in the depth chart. John Fox wanted Josh McCown as the back-up. You keep forgetting...Matt Moore was never going to get a chance if Delhomme never got hurt. If it was truly his job to lose, we would have made some type of endorsement like the Titans and 49ers already did.

You got your facts all confused again. In 2006 we actually had a top 10 defense. In 2007 and 2008 they were poor. That is why Fox was meddling.

As for Moore he did regress. Look at the facts I did. His preseason was poor and the knock was he didn't know the playbook. That is what folks on the inside were saying I didn't make it up. If he wanted McCown as the backup this year he wouldn't have put him on IR. He put him on IR because he was afraid that if jake got hurt he couldn't trust Moore to take over and couldn't wait the 6-8 weeks to find out. So he was forced in his mind to IR McCown and bring in Feeley. Up to the day he actually played, nothing in practice or in the film room showed moore was ready to start. Those are the facts.

Cutting Delhomme is like cutting a cancer off this team. The team's late season play reflected that. Jake ain't going to get any better and NFL logic would tell you that delegating a long-time starter at QB to back-up on the same team doesn't make any sense. Especially since Jake feels like he can still start. People have been calling for Delhomme's head for years. He was the worst starter this year besides JaMarcus Russell. Why not get a guy like Jason Campbell or some other guy that can actually give Matt Moore some competition? Jake Delhomme has already left a bad taste in Carolina's mouth...if he go to camp with Moore, everyone is going to expect Moore to win out and if he doesn't, they will riot. And How am I coming up with all this stuff if Fox and Hurney said this crap themselves?! I'm stating the cold hard truth that some people don't want to hear. You think this man, John Fox, is going to bench a guy he told the media that he would have a hard time benching...even after he was playing so horrible this past season and was reinforced by starting him so long. You think Hurney planned on Delhomme being a back-up in his 2nd year of a 5 year contract? He just said he felt the same about him as he did before. Like I said, Politics and Loyalty is going to come into play if Jake and Fox are both here next year. People are looking into the future to keep Fox, but are forgetting a famous quote "Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

But, I'mma agree on your notion that Fox has been inconsistent and I don't want that type of inconsistency for this franchise anymore. His flaws are starting to outway his strengths. It's time to move on.

The rest of this is hysterical rambling. There is no evidence that Jake is a cancer and both Moore and he have publically stated things are fine going into next year and they remain friends and will work together. Again look at the contract with Jake and read the article I posted and Gantt's article. There are various mechanisms to void the contract after 2010. The guarateed payments were to insure Jake didn't get cut right after signing it. Otherwise he wouldn't have done it which did save up cap space this year. The contract will cost us 12 or 13 million in 2010. If we do the 10 million signing bonus and the guarateed salary of 2.5 million for 2010 we can void the rest of it. No one including Jake expected to see anything beyond the guaranteed money. Go look at his interview after he signed it and he said he would never see at least half of the money.

No one plans to be a backup but all starters get replaced. His last interview conceded that he may not start. And yes if jake plays it will be moore's fault and even then Delhomme will be on a short leash. It is also Fox's last year and he is either fighting for an extension or auditioning for his next team. And finally how many times has a starter had an injury when they are going in a different direction as a starter? How many guys have been out on Ir without season ending injuries like Moore in 2008. It is how Fox likes to save face with the player. Remember in 2006 Jake missed 3 games but came back when Weinke was awful. Jake wasn't placed on IR then and wasn't placed on IR this year until it was clear Moore was doing fine then he was placed on IR. That is the point that Moore became the starter on this team instead of the injury replacement

And who says that Fox doesn't learn each year. This is his first coaching gig and new situations arise each year. I think he does learn and at least avoids the same mistake. Drafting Williams in 2006 was in response to running out of running backs in 2005. Drafting Stewart in 2008 was to insure we had 2 starters if one got hurt. He does make mistakes but usually not the same ones. If you don't accept what Jake and Moore say explaining it away as "that's what they have to say for the team" then why quote Fox and Hurney and believe what they are saying. Both of them are likely to be a lot less definitive in public and do their business behind closed doors.

Here is a quote for you. Whatever you decide to look for, given time you will find it or at least believe you have.

In other words you dislike and mistrust the FO so you will find evidence for your point of view. I tend to believe that the FO wants what is best for the Panthers and will make the right choices 90% of the time. Delhomme was the 10%. Half empty/ Half full. I see it one way you see it the other.

[AceMan]

Lets condense this for brevity. First of all Foster got more carries than Davis so he got a shot but you play both because they need a rest. Why did we play Stewart last year when Williams was getting a yard more a carry? Because we needed both. Plus Davis was used in the redzone where you break off fewer runs.

Foster got carries when Davis got hurt, which seems to be the only way for a guy to get a chance on a John Fox team. He was averaging around 9 or 10 carries a game before that. Like I said, it was clear that Foster was the better RB at that point. Stewart was used alot because Fox staked his Carolina job on him and Otah. Also, Fox didn't trust Williams to carry the load even though he never really gave him a true chance.

You got your facts all confused again. In 2006 we actually had a top 10 defense. In 2007 and 2008 they were poor. That is why Fox was meddling.

Well excuse me, I added an extra year then. My bad. But if the defense was top 10, why are we complaining about it here.

Again wrong again. One difference between 2005 and 2006 was our offense was less efficient with fewer thrid down conversions. We had poorer field position and scored less often. But the defense was also a culprit.

As for Moore he did regress. Look at the facts I did. His preseason was poor and the knock was he didn't know the playbook. That is what folks on the inside were saying I didn't make it up. If he wanted McCown as the backup this year he wouldn't have put him on IR. He put him on IR because he was afraid that if jake got hurt he couldn't trust Moore to take over and couldn't wait the 6-8 weeks to find out. So he was forced in his mind to IR McCown and bring in Feeley. Up to the day he actually played, nothing in practice or in the film room showed moore was ready to start. Those are the facts.

Preseason is preseason...and I dont totally believe that playbook thing. Fox had game study from his rookie year and should have seen something in practice/camp/w-e...IRing McCown was stupid in hindsight that he started Delhomme anyway and never played Feeley. Moore playing so well to me suggests that Fox just never really looked at Moore.

The rest of this is hysterical rambling. There is no evidence that Jake is a cancer and both Moore and he have publically stated things are fine going into next year and they remain friends and will work together. Again look at the contract with Jake and read the article I posted and Gantt's article. There are various mechanisms to void the contract after 2010. The guarateed payments were to insure Jake didn't get cut right after signing it. Otherwise he wouldn't have done it which did save up cap space this year. The contract will cost us 12 or 13 million in 2010. If we do the 10 million signing bonus and the guarateed salary of 2.5 million for 2010 we can void the rest of it. No one including Jake expected to see anything beyond the guaranteed money. Go look at his interview after he signed it and he said he would never see at least half of the money.

C'mon dude...I'm saying we are wasting a roster spot by even keeping Jake Delhomme on the team right now. And you could tell he was a cancer by the play of the team. You think the offense just suddenly turned on? I'm pretty sure Jake thought he would at least be starting in the 2nd year of that contract. Incredibly stupid offseason move...

No one plans to be a backup but all starters get replaced. His last interview conceded that he may not start. And yes if jake plays it will be moore's fault and even then Delhomme will be on a short leash. It is also Fox's last year and he is either fighting for an extension or auditioning for his next team. And finally how many times has a starter had an injury when they are going in a different direction as a starter? How many guys have been out on Ir without season ending injuries like Moore in 2008. It is how Fox likes to save face with the player. Remember in 2006 Jake missed 3 games but came back when Weinke was awful. Jake wasn't placed on IR then and wasn't placed on IR this year until it was clear Moore was doing fine then he was placed on IR. That is the point that Moore became the starter on this team instead of the injury replacement

That is a bitch move by John Fox then. Many speculated that, I know I have...but until I get some type of endorsement from Fox/Hurney/JR that Moore is the starter...then I'mma think otherwise. Also, Fox need to stop trying to save face and start making some hard decisions. Which is one of his biggest weaknesses...personnel decisions.

And who says that Fox doesn't learn each year. This is his first coaching gig and new situations arise each year. I think he does learn and at least avoids the same mistake. Drafting Williams in 2006 was in response to running out of running backs in 2005. Drafting Stewart in 2008 was to insure we had 2 starters if one got hurt. He does make mistakes but usually not the same ones. If you don't accept what Jake and Moore say explaining it away as "that's what they have to say for the team" then why quote Fox and Hurney and believe what they are saying. Both of them are likely to be a lot less definitive in public and do their business behind closed doors.

Here is a quote for you. Whatever you decide to look for, given time you will find it or at least believe you have.

In other words you dislike and mistrust the FO so you will find evidence for your point of view. I tend to believe that the FO wants what is best for the Panthers and will make the right choices 90% of the time. Delhomme was the 10%. Half empty/ Half full. I see it one way you see it the other.

:biggrin5: I'mma start calling myself eternal pessimist.

But really, I don't trust those jokers...

[panthers55]

Foster got carries when Davis got hurt, which seems to be the only way for a guy to get a chance on a John Fox team. He was averaging around 9 or 10 carries a game before that. Like I said, it was clear that Foster was the better RB at that point. Stewart was used alot because Fox staked his Carolina job on him and Otah. Also, Fox didn't trust Williams to carry the load even though he never really gave him a true chance.

Davis had surgury and never recovered. He was another guy who got "injured" instead of replaced. As for Williams, before 2008 he didn't show he was worthy of starting. After he took Vinny's advice and did what he should all along he is starting because he earned it. In the NFL you seize the opportunities you don't wait for things to be given to you. Still Stewart was brought in for a two back punch and this year shows he was right.

Preseason is preseason...and I dont totally believe that playbook thing. Fox had game study from his rookie year and should have seen something in practice/camp/w-e...IRing McCown was stupid in hindsight that he started Delhomme anyway and never played Feeley. Moore playing so well to me suggests that Fox just never really looked at Moore.

Well that settles it, if you don't believe it you must be correct. Forget that other folks on the inside stated it. Moore never gave them a reason to beleive he was the man and he was on IR in 2008 so what do you expect.

C'mon dude...I'm saying we are wasting a roster spot by even keeping Jake Delhomme on the team right now. And you could tell he was a cancer by the play of the team. You think the offense just suddenly turned on? I'm pretty sure Jake thought he would at least be starting in the 2nd year of that contract. Incredibly stupid offseason move...

I keep hearing the roster spot nonsense. We take 80 people into camp including 4 or 5 quarterbacks including guys only worthy of camp fodder. That holds no water at all. And no you are grasping at straws. Players were glad when moore played that he did better than expected but Jake is still a leader on the team and respected. Surely not a cancer .

That is a bitch move by John Fox then. Many speculated that, I know I have...but until I get some type of endorsement from Fox/Hurney/JR that Moore is the starter...then I'mma think otherwise. Also, Fox need to stop trying to save face and start making some hard decisions. Which is one of his biggest weaknesses...personnel decisions.

Calling a starter now would be a huge mistake. Make both of them compete and do their best and name a starter when appropriate. They are running a football team not trying to assuage your anxiety.

:biggrin5: I'mma start calling myself eternal pessimist.

But really, I don't trust those jokers...

DUH Don't worry, you are in good company, I can't remember when there was so much whining and complaining as I have seen the last 2 months.