Steve Smith: A Slot Receiver In 2012?

[thefuzz]

You really think they would ignore Smith and put their best corner on Gettis or LaFell? Teams put their best corner on Smith and roll safety coverage his way most of the time. If they were stupid enough to ignore him it wouldn't last a quarter before they made the switch. Kind of what happened in 2008 when we ignored Fitzgerald and he burned us until we put Gamble on him.

Did I say that they would ignore him?

Nope.

I said that teams don't always put their best CB on the other teams best WR like you had stated.

Many teams leave their corners on the outside, and use their nickle on the slot. Not all corners can come off the sideline and be good defending the middle of the field.

P.S. no team is stupid enough to ignore Smith, however they are smart enough to know that you can't take Nnamdi and make him a slot corner.

[panthers55]

Did I say that they would ignore him?

Nope.

I said that teams don't always put their best CB on the other teams best WR like you had stated.

Many teams leave their corners on the outside, and use their nickle on the slot. Not all corners can come off the sideline and be good defending the middle of the field.

P.S. no team is stupid enough to ignore Smith, however they are smart enough to know that you can't take Nnamdi and make him a slot corner.

I remember that we used to do that back in 2007/2008 under Fox but even he had to make adjustments when teams started to move around their receivers to find better matchups and abuse us.

But I don't agree that most teams line up corners in the same place regardless of who they face or that Philly wouldn't line up Nnamdi in the slot if Smitty went inside. Nnamdi is actually a much better man corner than zone corner. Since the nickel corner is usually better in man, he would actually be a good nickel guy. It may be true if you are talking about your outside corners being primarily zone corners and your nickel lining up in man then you might not move them around but if I were playing the Patriots, for example, I would either move my best man corner on Welker all day long and play zone on the outsides in a cover 1 shell, or I would put one on one man coverage on the outsides and put a nickel corner and perhaps a safety on Welker over the middle. Obviously it depends on what you define as your best corner and what coverage you are talking about. But most folks who try and take Smitty out of the game put a corner on him in man coverage and a safety over the top. If you don't do that he will abuse you. I am sure you can come up with an example or two but most teams put their best corner on the number 1 receiver just like we put Gamble on their number 1. Using the exception to a rule hardly negates an argument,

[thefuzz]

I remember that we used to do that back in 2007/2008 under Fox but even he had to make adjustments when teams started to move around their receivers to find better matchups and abuse us.

But I don't agree that most teams line up corners in the same place regardless of who they face or that Philly wouldn't line up Nnamdi in the slot if Smitty went inside. Nnamdi is actually a much better man corner than zone corner. Since the nickel corner is usually better in man, he would actually be a good nickel guy. It may be true if you are talking about your outside corners being primarily zone corners and your nickel lining up in man then you might not move them around but if I were playing the Patriots, for example, I would either move my best man corner on Welker all day long and play zone on the outsides in a cover 1 shell, or I would put one on one man coverage on the outsides and put a nickel corner and perhaps a safety on Welker over the middle. Obviously it depends on what you define as your best corner and what coverage you are talking about. But most folks who try and take Smitty out of the game put a corner on him in man coverage and a safety over the top. If you don't do that he will abuse you. I am sure you can come up with an example or two but most teams put their best corner on the number 1 receiver just like we put Gamble on their number 1. Using the exception to a rule hardly negates an argument,

Most teams do not rotate their best corner to the slot. If you are talking about rotating left to right, but on the outside, you do see a fair amount of that. Very very few corners that play the outside roll over to the nickle. When they do things normally don't go all that well.

You said that a team would roll it's best corner to cover Smith if he was pushed to the slot. I am saying that very few teams would move their no. 1 corner into the slot as they are not accustomed to playing that position.

In fact IIRC one of the major problems with Philly's D last year from an article i read was them trying to push Nnamdi to the inside.

[panthers55]

Most teams do not rotate their best corner to the slot. If you are talking about rotating left to right, but on the outside, you do see a fair amount of that. Very very few corners that play the outside roll over to the nickle. When they do things normally don't go all that well.

You said that a team would roll it's best corner to cover Smith if he was pushed to the slot. I am saying that very few teams would move their no. 1 corner into the slot as they are not accustomed to playing that position.

In fact IIRC one of the major problems with Philly's D last year from an article i read was them trying to push Nnamdi to the inside.

First of all who says they don't do that if the opposing team's best receiver moves into the slot and abuses them a few times?? Unless you are an expert of every team's defensive moves after watching all the games, especially adjustments made after a few series, you are making a huge assumption. As for me I was referring to games I have watched for example when we played the Jets and they moved Revis to cover Smith wherever he went. That happens all the time with Smith and I suspect he is not alone. You think that If Megatron moved into the slot that Gamble wouldn't follow?? Especially if he picked up a few receptions after Gamble shut him down most of the day on the outside? Stop arguing for a minute and think about it for a moment. In fact I think that scenario happened last year and we moved Gamble to cover him.

I said if an opposing team moves their best receiver to the slot and starts picking up chunks of yards then I would respond by moving my best man coverage corner to the slot or staying with the nickel but giving help over the top with a safety and letting the corners battle it out with only one deep safety. I think teams would do the same.

As for Nnambi, I didn't read the article. Link it so I can read it and comment. Otherwise I have no opinion about it,,,,,,

[panthers55]

Most teams do not rotate their best corner to the slot. If you are talking about rotating left to right, but on the outside, you do see a fair amount of that. Very very few corners that play the outside roll over to the nickle. When they do things normally don't go all that well.

You said that a team would roll it's best corner to cover Smith if he was pushed to the slot. I am saying that very few teams would move their no. 1 corner into the slot as they are not accustomed to playing that position.

In fact IIRC one of the major problems with Philly's D last year from an article i read was them trying to push Nnamdi to the inside.

No one said that most teams move their best corner to the slot. The discussion was that most teams line up their best corner on Smith wherever he lines up and use safety help over the top. I said if we put Smitty in the slot and had success against their nickel, they would either give him safety over the top or rotate the corner who had been covering him on the outside back inside to cover him. That is what a good DC would do in my opinion.

You seem the one getting hung on always and most. So before you argue again, answer this.... Do most teams put their best corner on Smith or do they play left and right irregardless of where he lines up???? And you know this how?????

If Smitty moved into the slot and was abusing the nickel corner, how would you propose to stop him if you were the opposing DC??

Once you answer those questions we can proceed with a discussion instead of an always most discussion....

[carolinarolls]

Just like LFitz sliding down in the slot and torching us in the playoff game. You put a number one guy anywhere on the field you want. There are no rules. Like chess. The O had pieces and the D has pieces. You move the pieces to get the advantage.

Chud may be gone, may not. As long as he is good enough to make a conversation he is much better than anything we have ever had. It's not just him and his playbook either. It is Cam, two pro bowl quality running backs, the toughest play maker in the game, and some very athletic tight ends.

[panthers55]

Just like LFitz sliding down in the slot and torching us in the playoff game. You put a number one guy anywhere on the field you want. There are no rules. Like chess. The O had pieces and the D has pieces. You move the pieces to get the advantage.

Chud may be gone, may not. As long as he is good enough to make a conversation he is much better than anything we have ever had. It's not just him and his playbook either. It is Cam, two pro bowl quality running backs, the toughest play maker in the game, and some very athletic tight ends.

As you note, one of the primary reasons we lost that game from a defensive side was failure to adjust to Fitz moving around to take advantage of the matchups. It was only after halftime that we put Gamble on him wherever he went. That was a huge mistake and I think the last time we were so predictable. Arizona said they saw that we kept the corners on the same side of the field regardless of who lined up there and game planned to take advantage of it. A huge problem that I can't believe teams are still stupid enough to be doing that.

As for Chud he is certainly a creative mind, but he also more pieces to work with than we have had here in forever. Until last year we went almost a decade without a decent TE. And we have never had a franchise quarterback as talented at Newton.

[thefuzz]

55 you bring up one CB who moves to the slot. There are more, but they are not the same position. You cannot just willy nilly move a perimeter CB to the inside and expect him to play well. You probably can take a few of the most talented CB's in the NFL and ask them to move to the inside and shadow a WR. Most of the starting CB's cannot do that with any success.

Below are a couple of quotes from Greg Cosell about slot corners, and special skill set it takes.

Keep in mind teams also run three-wide groups in normal down and distance situations as a regular feature of their offense. What burden does that place on the defense, as it specifically relates to the slot corner? It means he has three responsibilities: cover man (the most apparent), blitzer and run defender (not talked about enough). Those are three distinct skill sets, but they are all required of a slot corner.

Think about that for a minute. It’s not a filler position, simply employed because the offense lined up with three wide receivers. It’s a well-defined position that is essential to NFL defense, and it demands a specific set of attributes. Look at the Philadelphia Eagles last season. They had three very good NFL corners: Nnamdi Asomugha, Asante Samuel and Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie. All three are perimeter corners. The Eagles believed they could put Rodgers-Cromartie and/or Asomugha in the slot, solely because they were athletically talented players. It doesn’t work that way, so things didn’t play out as the Eagles expected. Neither Rodgers-Cromartie nor Asomugha possessed the combination of traits necessary to play effectively in the slot, and it proved to be a primary contributing factor to the Eagles’ struggles in 2011. As the Eagles now know, a slot corner is a key component to defensive success.

[thefuzz]

http://nflfilms.nfl.com/2012/04/02/cosell-talks-the-slot-factor/

That is the entire article.

[carolinarolls]

lmao

but any corner is better than a LB when u are talking about a true outside #1 wr moving inside for the sole purpose of mismatch

good grief

[PantherPhann89]

I like moving/rotating Smith to the slot eventhough we don't have a legit #1 or 2 if/when we do. I would assume that it would be LaFell and Gettis. It is easier for a QB to throw to the slot receiver and the slot receiver opens up the field, which will help our #1 WR, #2 WR, TE, RB and FB out in the passing game. It's just another dimension to keep the defense guessing on what we're going to do. I think that it puts a wrinkle in their gameplan. But don't forget that we know have Adams as well. This is gonna be interesting....

[panthers55]

55 you bring up one CB who moves to the slot. There are more, but they are not the same position. You cannot just willy nilly move a perimeter CB to the inside and expect him to play well. You probably can take a few of the most talented CB's in the NFL and ask them to move to the inside and shadow a WR. Most of the starting CB's cannot do that with any success.

Below are a couple of quotes from Greg Cosell about slot corners, and special skill set it takes.

Keep in mind teams also run three-wide groups in normal down and distance situations as a regular feature of their offense. What burden does that place on the defense, as it specifically relates to the slot corner? It means he has three responsibilities: cover man (the most apparent), blitzer and run defender (not talked about enough). Those are three distinct skill sets, but they are all required of a slot corner.

Think about that for a minute. It’s not a filler position, simply employed because the offense lined up with three wide receivers. It’s a well-defined position that is essential to NFL defense, and it demands a specific set of attributes. Look at the Philadelphia Eagles last season. They had three very good NFL corners: Nnamdi Asomugha, Asante Samuel and Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie. All three are perimeter corners. The Eagles believed they could put Rodgers-Cromartie and/or Asomugha in the slot, solely because they were athletically talented players. It doesn’t work that way, so things didn’t play out as the Eagles expected. Neither Rodgers-Cromartie nor Asomugha possessed the combination of traits necessary to play effectively in the slot, and it proved to be a primary contributing factor to the Eagles’ struggles in 2011. As the Eagles now know, a slot corner is a key component to defensive success.

Thanks for the article on the Eagles. But I still fail to see how a slot defender is more difficult to play than a corner playing man on the outside. Actually the opposite is true I would suspect. Playing on the inside where you have linebacker help and safeties would be easier than playing outside where you have no help. After all aren't we talking about using Capt as a nickel defender?? He largely failed as a second corner and the general thought is he would still be a good nickel corner???? Tell me again how the nickel is harder to play yet most teams use their third best corner as their nickel corner who is usually a guy with more limited skills compared to their first 2 corners. So that would mean that moving one of the 2 better corners would upgrade the slot not the other way around. The only caveat to that would be if the outside corners were largely zone corners which wouldn't work if you are using man under which is mostly the case with slot defenders.

[thefuzz]

Thanks for the article on the Eagles. But I still fail to see how a slot defender is more difficult to play than a corner playing man on the outside. Actually the opposite is true I would suspect. Playing on the inside where you have linebacker help and safeties would be easier than playing outside where you have no help. After all aren't we talking about using Capt as a nickel defender?? He largely failed as a second corner and the general thought is he would still be a good nickel corner???? Tell me again how the nickel is harder to play yet most teams use their third best corner as their nickel corner who is usually a guy with more limited skills compared to their first 2 corners. So that would mean that moving one of the 2 better corners would upgrade the slot not the other way around. The only caveat to that would be if the outside corners were largely zone corners which wouldn't work if you are using man under which is mostly the case with slot defenders.

Never said it was harder to play, just that it's not the same.

The slot/nickle corner is also not the third best corner, he just doesn't have the same skill set as the outside guys....for the most part.

IIRC Revis is one of the only guys that truly play the slot as well as the outside.

The outside normally has the faster guys, but not necessarily the quickest guys. Also the outside corners can use the sideline to their advantage whereas the slot guy does not have that option.

Most teams put their fastest, biggest WR's on the outside because they can beat 1 on 1 coverage most of the time requiring teams to roll their safety's to the most important side of the field.

The slot guys are normally smaller, and shifty, but can also be a bigger guy without much top end speed, that can't beat the good corners 1 on 1. Think Welker and Colston.

If you can consistently beat 1 on 1 coverage (Johnson's, Fitz, Megatron, SS) most teams will leave you on the outside so teams have to commit two players to stopping your 1. IF a team does move a top WR or TE to the slot or the middle that's why it's imperative to have a good cover safety. I would not try to turn my perimeter guy into a slot CB, as it's not the same position.

[TheRealDeal]

Smith may be moving around a bit this year. I can imagine us using Smith like New England using Welker. This will make our offense even more unstoppable. Man I can't wait!

http://www.catscratc...-2012#storyjump

How does something become "even more unstoppable"? It's unstoppable an absolute?