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Here's the thing. You compared him to Jake. Jake was signed to the practice squad out of college. Bryce was the number 1 overall. Their expectations are wildly different and so are their contracts. You can talk all you want about what a player is and where they are now and all this other mumbo jumbo, but Jake never had a 5th year option and we weren't talking about the possibility of a top 5 QB contract extension at the end of his 3rd year. What he was expected to be matters because we invested heavily at a cost of future capital, including a 2nd round pick this year, for him to be that guy. The cost to add Bryce took value from the team. To be worth it, he has to add that value back. Actually, I don't prefer yards, TDs, or only INTs. All those stats by themselves are misleading which is why I said you have to use a lot of different stats. ADOT - Average depth of target. Completion %. Pretty obvious until you factor in ADOT. 0-5 has a lot higher C% than 10-15%. Hang time. If a pass is in the air for 4.6 seconds vs 3.1 on a 40 yards throw, that gives a DB a lot of time to correct. Is it a loft or is it a laser. EPA - Expected points added. A way of measuring QB efficiency on every play. CPOE - ranking pass completions based on several factors, not just the throw. There's obviously more, but those are the more common. Typical stats don't show everything. You need to look all over. Looking at a stat line is lazy. That's why I said, you need to analyze everything. Once you start looking at the numbers you start looking at the player. That's why you follow numbers. They lead you places. You look at what happening when the numbers show you patterns. That's where you start finding the problems that yards, TDs and Ints won't show you.

It's not relevant who wins or loses. It's about actually attempting to get better at the position.

Thank you. I don't understand how the Bryce stans don't see this. I've never seen a player get more hyped for doing so little. Honestly it's driving me a little insane.

Exactly, Bryce will lose. If the draft pick is halfway decent he beats out Bryce as well.

Frankie's better brother.

I knew he was with the Vikings in PS but didn't realize they had kept him and then traded him. Also, as to why he might not be playing: "Increasingly well traveled, Howell sat out Minnesota's preseason finale. He ended August with 118 passing yards and an interception on 12-of-18 passing in the preseason. However, his last appearance in purple was a disaster in which he completed one of his five pass attempts for 13 yards and the aforementioned pick."

No, no, no. I don't mean bring him back. I just mean another wild gunslinger with poor decision making and a penchant for a ton of turnovers.

I just don't get this at all. Literally almost any vet they sign would be competition.

He's with the Eagles. They traded three lower round picks for him back in August.

The fact people are hyping up scrubs like Howell and Lance really indicates just how cosmically unlikely it is anyone but Bryce is gonna start for us next year.

Well, as far as "weird technical arguments" you're still doing everything you can to justify the notion that you can somehow not credit an important part of the team with team wins. It's not a valid argument, and no amount of spinning or rationalizing is gonna make it into one.

No no no. I mean draft a guy like cousins in the 3rd or 4th. That is when he was drafted.

Said Bryce is part of the wins and plays a key position. Not the same as saying he's the key to the wins. But also not denying he plays a role in them because...well, he did. Even if you limit his contributions to the game winning drives in the 4th quarter, those still count. And yes, he's improved. but saying that doesn't equate to saying he's good enough to put the franchise label on him. It's just a simple acknowledgement that he's better than he used to be (to what degree is debatable). As to his initial expectations, I'll just say stats aren't the only thing I don't care about. What he is matters way more than what he was expected to be. And what is he? He's what you referenced, a mid-tier quarterback. Not the "worst in the league" or "worst ever" as some claim. That's just hyperbole. Lots of teams have those. Very few teams have elite ones. And I wouldn't bet on next year's draft having a supply of those either. And again, stats. We used to have a number of folks who bandied about some of Delhomme's stats, Newton's stats, etc. to argue they weren't good. But lets look at a few of those... What metric do you prefer? Yards, perhaps? Well, if those are key then Jared Goff, Sam Darnold and Bo Nix are all doing better than Baker Mayfield right now. The second best quarterback in the league? Dak Prescott. And Young? Well, he's outpacing CJ Stroud, Lamar Jackson, Tua Tagavailoa and even Aaron Rodgers. Prefer touchdowns? Cool. On that front, Jared Goff is tied for third in the league with Drake Maye, leading Rodgers, Mayfield. Patrick Mahomes and Josh Allen among others. Bryce is 15th in the league here, just a single score shy of Rodgers, Mayfield, Sam Darnold, Daniel Jones and Josh Allen. Ahead of Tagavailoa, Trevor Lawrence, Caleb Williams, and Jackson. Interceptions? Holy hell, Bryce has fewer interceptions than Sam Darnold, Trevor Lawrence and, again... Josh Allen. Does that mean I can go out and post on X that Bryce has better ball security than Allen? But wait, are some of these stats... misleading? Or might hh+jjhthey be, just a little...out of context? Ya know, it seems like they kinda are. Weird, huh

It's how we ended up with Brian Burns and not Greg Little in the 1st. Dan Snyder overruled his entire staff and took Dwayne Haskins RIP. If Burns had been the selection like many expected, Hurney had already said he was taking Little at 16. That would have brought his 1st round success rate down a few pegs. Woof!

Factually of course but pretty much a done deal especially since some of the tiebreakers don't go our way.

If you are using PFR then you should be able to easily the the dividing league average line.....where Bryce is above and Trevor is below it. It's a big blank space that says league average when you are sorting by bad throw %. You don't really want to go backwards. Bryce was #1 in bad throw % in 2023 Bryce was #1 in bad throw % in 2024 (technically 2 but #1 was Anthony Richardson and he didn't finish out the season) in 2023, 2024, 2025.....Bryce is above league average all 3 seasons in bad throw % and Trevor is below all 3 seasons. Bryce stans need to find something else than thinking Trevor Lawrence somehow makes Bryce Young not bad. It's not working. And no one, even Clemson fans, really want to be in here defending the forever disappointing Trevor Lawrence.

Factually incorrect, we can lose to the saints and if we run the table the last 3 we win the division

What's correct at this point isnt super relevant as they are both 9-3 one of them will be the 5 seed they also play each other. Honestly after watching several full Seattle games they are so conservative I think we will compete.

This board must have way more Clemson fans than I give it credit for, the amount of folks that watch all the Trevor Lawrence games is way higher than I would have guessed. #All In! Go Tigers! Jaguars are also 6-1 this season with Trevor's best weapon the field. Which all of us Trevor watchers know isn't BTJ given we watch all his games.

Tied now, also either Seattle or LA will be the 5 so we will have an idea if its a game we can compete in.

For fug sake man, can you read? Where did I criticize bryce and where did I make excuses for TL? goddamn and bryce is in a way better situation. Better oline, better rbs, better wrs. What in the holy fug are you watching?

Who is Freddie Luvvu?

yeah, but this is just some weird technical argument being randomly pulled for Bryce Young. No one in real time was wanting to make sure Philly Brown and Mike Remmers were probably credited. They were called weak links that we overcame and still succeeded with on that magical run. this bad technical defense had you saying Rex Grossman deserved the credit for taking the Bears to the Super Bowl when we all know the world was amazed they pulled off such a feat with a bad QB. Bryce Young does play a key position on the team, and it is amazing the Panthers have been able to win what they have despite such weak QB play. it hard to win WITH Bryce Young playing a key role on this team. Panthers deserve credit for pulling that off. It's not something people should want to do going forward because lady luck can only do so much and come and goes.