MasterAwesome

So are you guys just literally watching Stroud YouTube highlights or something? How do you say this above, but also very confidently assert that Stroud's o-line and receivers have been just as bad as Bryce's when you admit to not really watching his film? Where exactly does that assertion come from? Oh right, because "injuries"...instead of something silly like how they are actually performing.

I think you're missing the forest for the trees here...the broader point is that there's just flat out more being put on Bryce's plate. Pointing out a singular play where Stroud made an adjustment doesn't mean they're being asked to do the same things. Even his awkward explanation of it (where he didn't even think Dalton understood what he was trying to say) and the fact that there's a whole article surrounding it, highlights how exceptional it is...and I mean that two-fold. Exceptional in that it was an outstanding play, and exceptional in that it's outside the norm. Have you been watching both QBs? Do you think the amount of pre-snap activity and adjustments looks more-or-less the same to you from both QBs? Whether Bryce is doing that of his own accord or he's being asked to do that, he's simply doing too much. It's clear that all the offseason talk about his smarts and processing was way overhyped and mounted way too high of expectations for what we thought he should/would be doing instantly from Week 1. He seems to be in his head too much, which is something I thought you'd understand because it sounds an awful lot like what Fields came out and said earlier this season before he put together back-to-back incredible performances. Yeah I know Bryce's brain is his strength, but expecting him to immediately outsmart NFL vets/DCs with decades of coaching experience, while also getting acclimated to NFL game speed, while also building rapport with an entirely new receiving corps, while also mastering a new playbook, while also running for his life behind literally the 31st ranked o-line according to PFF...it was way too tall of an order in hindsight. Sounds like we're finally going to simplify things for Bryce and allow the rookie to be a rookie, instead of a savant.

This guy has to be a plant...or an Igo alt. This kind of thread only serves as fodder for the usual suspects. It's like dropping fish food in an aquarium and seeing all the little fishies BOLTING over for a little morsel.

Let's hope so...that's the one game I'm attending this season lol.

Well we're just getting bogged down by that outside noise/chatter again. If you're not able to move past the pre-draft stuff, that's fine, but it's just wholly unproductive...which is why I couldn't care less about discussing stuff from 6+ months ago. I'm more interested in the current and future state of the Panthers rather than constantly living in the past, which is why my posts revolve around evaluating Bryce on his own merits (because he's our QB) and his prospects for success as a potential franchise QB. Rather than what so-and-so said before the draft and how other teams' QBs are looking. I can't help but roll my eyes a little because if the team does something that you agree with, then to the crowd who disagreed with that move, your advice to them is "look, what's done is done. Move on...no point in arguing about it". The big examples being the CMC trade and the Burns non-trade last year - you were a big supporter of trading CMC and keeping Burns. So people who wanted to keep CMC and trade Burns and would complain about it over and over, you'd tell them there's no point in complaining about it ad nauseum. That Frank I can at least empathize with. But the other Frank...oh boy...god forbid the Panthers do something he disagrees with, because the rest of us have to hear about it for months and months and months, if not years. That poor horse is getting beaten to a bloody pulp.

You could easily make the case that the Colts look better with Minshew under center vs. Richardson. They're 3-0 with Minshew starting/playing the majority of the game (due to Richardson injuries) and 0-2 with Richardson taking the majority of the snaps. That's not a knock against Richardson...he has obviously looked promising. That's an example of a vet outperforming a rookie but a team knowing that it's in their best interest as a franchise to put their rookie out there to take his lumps rather than "who looks better right now". I doubt anyone in the Colts organization is surprised that Minshew is the more effective passer of the two, 5 games into Richardson's young career. I know I know, "Steph Curry of the NFL" "Drew Brees Jr." "Most pro ready QB" etc. etc. but remove all the off-the-field hype and fluff and noise about Bryce and allow him to simply be a rookie playing the hardest position in the NFL.

Exactly...I didn't make that claim lightly.

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxvhKxFDJ9T_Z0sJewLbwtvP47LJkdVD_Q?si=bmeLEyfiV-f3S_lM Here's an out with ~30 air yards. Another one that Bryce threw before the receiver even made his cut and turned around, despite how impressive it would have been if he had put more velocity into it and hit the back of Mingo's helmet to appease some people here.

He threw it before Thielen even turned around...did you want him to bullet that and hit Thielen in the back of the helmet? This might be your worst take yet.

I'm not sure what one has to do with the other. Bills traded for Diggs for Josh Allen, Eagles traded for AJ Brown for Hurts, Jags traded for Calvin Ridley for Lawrence, Dolphins traded for Tyreek Hill for Tua, Bears traded for DJ Moore for Fields, Cardinals traded for DeAndre Hopkins for Kyler Murray. And those are just the trades...not even considering the draft. So I don't get the snark for the Panthers doing something that basically every other team in the NFL does for their young QB. You draft a QB high, you go and get him a receiver...that seems to be the norm these days. If this tweet is true (which there seems to be dispute about), then it's an exploratory phone call. Something I would suspect happens far more often around the league than we hear about, with the vast majority not amounting to anything.

I would have thought that's just an average Friday night for you.

Yeah it was a running joke on these boards and was Juan's thing (along with homoerotic commentary). I get it if it's against the rules, but it feels like clickbait threads are moderated much more heavily than personal attacks, bumping old threads, and off-topic threads on the main forum during the season which are all supposedly also against the rules.

Poor Juan has been neutered...a shadow of his former self. This title doesn't quite have the same juice as "Panthers on the verge of trading for superstar WR".

Sorry I wasn’t trying to direct anything at you specifically. I kinda used your post as a launching pad to just speak broadly because I see Cam brought up a lot in regard to expectations of Bryce. You seem like a reasonable dude.

I hear Cam brought up a lot for comparison which obviously makes sense as a Panthers’ #1 pick who immediately looked the part. But what doesn’t make sense to me is that the whole time Cam was doing Cam things and putting the team on his back (even during his MVP season), all of us were BEGGING the FO to get him a supporting cast. That’s the key detail that seems to be missing in all these comparisons. It was never “oh he’s a #1 overall QB, he’s supposed to elevate the team around him, we don’t need to give him a good supporting. He’s just doing what he’s supposed to he doing”. He’d put the team on his back and we’d all be in awe like “Holy poo look at how incredible this guy is with this awful team around him”. To this day, we still talk about how the Panthers failed Cam. But for some reason with Bryce, our *expectation* now is exactly what we criticized the Panthers for doing with Cam. “Oh he’s a #1 overall pick, he doesn’t need good pieces around him, he should elevate everyone else”.

Did they not expect Shaq Mason to start when they signed him to a 3-year $36 million contract? And this just tells me that their back-ups and 3rd stringers may very well be better than our starters lol. Icky is at a 59.8 PFF rating for the year for example, while their back-up to the back-up LT (Deculus) is at a 62.6. Their back-up RT (Fant) is at 67.5 for the year, while Moton is at 62.8. Bozeman is at a 59.5, while their rookie 6th round C (Patterson) is at 60.3. In fact, they grade out better at every individual position on the o-line compared to us. Shaq Mason > Throckmorton at RG, and whoever the hell they have been putting at LG for damn sure is better than the worst-rated o-lineman in the league in Zavala (27 PFF rating). Didn't the Texans just get two of these coveted starters back last week against the Falcons (Tunsil and Howard)? And yet CJ probably had his worst performance since his debut in Week 1? Chandler Zavala went down against the Lions and I think most people agree that our o-line immediately looked better. Calvin Throckmorton is like our 3rd string OG and he has looked pretty solid himself. So it's a lot more complicated than "starters vs. back-ups", no?

Also what is "0 pressures, 0 QB hits" referring to? We apparently allowed 0 pressures but 15 hurries? What is the distinction there?

And who is going to find and hire that guy? If not Tepper, then someone Tepper decides to give that responsibility to. Either way, it's unavoidable that Tepper will be involved in some capacity.

Even if we overpaid for him relative to the market, he's undeniably been a steal so far. He's 33rd in salary for WRs, but 4th in receptions, 11th in yards, and tied for 5th in TDs. And as patient as I am with Bryce, there's no denying that he has missed an open Thielen on a ton of plays.

I'm down with Bruce Young. I can already feel his warm gentle smile melting away all my stress.

I think PFF is generally useful for more abstract positions that are harder to evaluate on a snap by snap basis. So how well individual o-linemen did in the run + pass game, how CBs held up in coverage when the ball wasn't thrown to their receiver, how well WRs ran their routes and created separation when they weren't the target, how well DEs set the edge on run plays, etc. But I don't think anyone relies on PFF to tell them how a QB looked when they handle the ball on every single snap and are the focal point of the offense. It'll be pretty obvious whether a QB had a good or bad game.

I agree that a QB who needs everything to be perfect around him to succeed is not a franchise guy. But is any part of his supporting cast even "average"? Can we even confidently say that? Seems to be 0 for 3 on o-line, receiving corps, and coaching for anyone watching the games. I feel like the "everything perfect" argument is a pretty big strawman. How about we just simply start with one good group around him and see how that goes? Surely there's a reasonable middle ground between everything being bad and everything being perfect. I also get the "not flashing" argument although I'd say that's a pretty subjective and unreliable metric to hone in on. Personally I've seen some impressive "capital A Anticipation" throws (to borrow from my YouTube QB School courses) that I've been encouraged by. Is that enough? Hell no, but I'd at least qualify those as flashes, personally. If you or others don't, then that's perfectly understandable, hence the "subjective" characterization of what constitutes flashing.

So Tua and Fields weren't flashing and yet their teams still invested significantly in them? I feel like the two examples you picked are at completed odds with your argument. Hell, we've been back and forth quite a bit about Fields but he's looked good these past two weeks. Two weeks where the #1 receiver his team traded to acquire for him has gone a combined 361 yards and 4 TDs. It feels like you're supporting my argument that investing in your QB (regardless of how much they have flashed) can pay big dividends.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree that a QB who went 2-7-1 "put the team on his back". I don't think you draft a QB 1st overall to simply look good while he's leading you to loss after loss. If Burrow is this truly elite #1 overall pick who elevates everyone around him, then by the logic conveyed on these boards, Cincinnati wouldn't have spent the 5th overall pick in the next draft on a receiver for him. Because #1 overall pick QBs shouldn't need elite pieces around him to excel, apparently. My argument is that the expectation of a QB (even those taken #1 overall) shouldn't be to put a horrible team on his back.

Maybe "pedestrian" was harsh? But he looked like probably a middle-of-the-road starting QB. Not much better than an Andy Dalton his first few years in the league who is the QB he replaced up there. He didn't look like a #1 overall pick who immediately came in and elevated the team around him is all I'm saying, until he got his elite WR corps. That seems to be the standard we've placed on Bryce. Yes Bryce has clearly looked worse than Burrow his rookie year but this is specifically an argument about the expectations of #1 overall QB elevating an awful team around him.