Stingray3030

So we have Tremble, JT Sanders, and the Thomas - Franks is the 4th but mainly just for Special teams. Sanders is a TE - on paper, on the roster, physically, and on the field. If you are trying to claim because he is a good receiver and not a great blocker he is not a TE then you have not watched very much football, like at all. Cause that is how a ton of TE's come into the league. Literally the #1, most common area for improvement for the TE group every single year - especially the top 5 TE's. And for the 1 millionth time, for the people in the back - drafting BPA is absolutely not a rule that anyone follows. Not a single team. They always factor in multiple things, BPA being one of them but not the most important almost ever. It is an evaluation of need, personal evaluation, pick position/who drafts before your next pick, trade offers, free agents possible. They don't follow it for good reason. Perfect example - Bo Nix. He was not rated anywhere near #12 by just about anyone - including the broncos. But they drafted him because they NEEDED a QB, liked him, and had no 2nd RD pick. They outright said that. Do you think they regret the pick? They drafted 100% for need and pick position. Example #2 - Bijan. Atlanta drafted BPA. He is amazing, had a great 2 years so far. They were 7-10 for 2 straight years prior. And the 2 years after they have been 7-10 & 8-9. Do you think they made the right decision? By the way they also spent the #4 overall pick on Pitts, a Generational TE, and he/they suck. I'd imagine Falcon fans would not agree with your BPA theory since they missed out on Chase, Waddle, Parsons, Horn, PSII, DeVonta Smith - all positions of need in 2021. BPA is A criteria, but not THE criteria.

Taking into account sample size I would only be about 60% confident in this assumption lol

Here is a fun addition to the conversation - this is first round hit rates since 2000 by position

I don't think cutting our 3rd string TE confirms a draft pick

For fun comparisons look up some past years to see how accurate/inaccurate this is - just type the players name and combine into the search bar and click the NFL website: Bryce Young - 6.82 vs Stroud - 6.70 Jayden Daniels - 6.73, Caleb Williams - 6.72, Bo Nix - 6.39 Puka Nacua - 5.8 Clearly not incredibly reliable - Have fun!

I definitely do but I am open to watching them at the combine this week.

He honestly never played at a very high level. Only thing we will miss is his leadership.

Can you imagine though? If the lower paid guys did that the QB's would simply sit out and ride out their ridiculous contracts. These guys won't take a reasonable pay cut now to win championships. No way they will take a 50% cut without a huge fight.

I think that ship has sailed - there is no way you are gonna get QB's to take the necessary pay cut to make this realistic now that their salaries are so inflated.

I am fully OK with smart trade downs - especially when you have as many needs as we do. And don't sell our defense short - we weren't just the worst in Panther's history - we were the NFL worst OF ALL TIME! And we seem to do alot better picking defensive players in the top 3 rounds than offense, so maybe we have a chance!

To clarify it was normally trading 8 & 113 for picks 12 & 44 - based on draft picks values it is very reasonable. You may not feel it is realistic in the real world though I get that. I am hoping it is.

This would be my answer as well - pretty much spot on agreed. I have done a ton of mock drafts where we trade back to 12-14, pick up picks 44-46, and still get Jalon Walker. To me that would be a massive victory if it is really possible assuming the previous are gone. I have seen this on 3 different Mock Draft sites consistently.

And define "worked" - I like Shaq and all, but he wasn't exactly a great player in the NFL. For a first round pick I would say he underachieved and never really lived up to the hype.

Very interesting take - not sure I have ever heard someone suggest this with a Day 2 prospect. Who knows - it could work. But this guy as an offensive weapon might be special in the NFL. He is not only fast, he is super quick and shifty. He reminds me of Cordarrelle Patterson only much quicker. If he really learns the WR position he could be a nightmare in the slot, wildcat, jet sweeps, KR. I would be very happy to get him in the late 2nd or early 3rd RD.

Especially in a year like this where we have so many later round picks. Much more likely to be a good player than some random defender. Of course we could always draft the best kicker, then cut him and watch him win multiple Superbowls.....again...

I'm sorry but the Panthers do not draft Clemson players - like ever. I am a Clemson grad so no hate just facts lol

Garrett Wilson is pretty much that though - 6'0" and super athletic. He is a top 10ish WR still on a rookie contract for another 2 years potentially. I agree in principle it is not hard to turn down a WR for #8 - but this particular one is what I say is hard. I think you are confused over who I say to turn down - I am speaking of the original thread regarding Garrett Wilson. I do not want Tet Mc at all at #8.

There is no absolute like "you don't draft out of need". You always make a choice based on the situation - sometimes need is more influential, sometimes BPA, sometimes trading. It depends on alot of factors. If you reread my post you see I never said you always draft on need....our situation in the worst defense in the history of the NFL. I think it is insane to say "any rookies we get this year on defense, wont move the needle that much." That is completely untrue. How many examples do you want to prove that? When we drafted Luke in 2012 our defense went from 28th to 10th and he led the league in tackles. I can give you plenty more examples - but very few of them involved guys drafted in the 2nd round. Depth doesn't mean elite depth - this draft has depth at above average talent but not elite talent. If you get to pick #8 and the guys available have similar grades you pick based on need every time, or you trade down for even more value, which is exactly wheat I stated above. Personally I think you see Tet as an elite talent and our options at 8 as less - so in that scenario I don't disagree with what you are saying is the better choice - I just personally don't see Tet as a top 10 talent so we just disagree. From every reliable source I have found Nabors>Harrison>Thomas>Tet. With that I am absolutely not taking him at #8. That grades him just above XL. If Graham, Carter, Johnson are gone I wanna trade down to 12-16, pick up an extra 2nd round pick, and take advantage of that depth you mentioned.

They better score 35pts a game cause our defense gives up 31! Worst points given up in NFL history. I don't know how as a GM you can come out of the first round of the NFL draft following the worst defense in NFL history without taking a defensive player. Day 1 off-season strategy planning meeting - Dan Morgan walks into the room and writes "MOST POINTS GIVEN UP IN NFL HISTORY". First question to the group - how do we fix this? If that isn't the start of the meeting we are in very big trouble. The caveat is always a non-defensive player with "generational talent" or no defensive studs left at 8. But for me the answer is Tet is not a generational talent and if there is no defensive studs when we get to 8 you trade down a few spots. Every analyst I have seen ranks Tet below Nabers, Harrison, Thomas, and Bowers last year - you don't draft that at 8 in our situation. Given our history of scouting WR's if our scouts feel differently than that I ABSOLUTELY know Tet is a bust.

Everyone saying XL and Coker aren't true #1 guys - development is actually a thing in the NFL. Sometimes true #1 WR's come into the league like JJ, Chase, Nabers - and sometimes they come in like Aiyuk, DJ Moore, or Nico. You may not personally feel like our guys have that potential but they certainly showed enough to see the possibilities. Point is we absolutely need a #1 WR and did not have it last year - but he may be on the roster and showed flashes - so WR is absolutely not the top need.

As much as I don't want to use our first 2 picks this year on a WR - this would be tough to decline. I think I would rather keep the pick and use it on defense though.

I stand by that 100% to this day and always will. Nothing I have posted here is any different than that statement. I have spoken to dozens and dozens and dozens of life-long Panther fans who completely agree with that. Cam had a losing record as a starter in 8 of 11 seasons. This is no different than current frustrations people on here have with the current program every year - some blame Bryce and some don't. Why don't you go pull up all of my comments on Bryce and let me know if you still want to try and imply BS? Why are you guys so concerned with whether or not I like Cam? Seriously what is your obsession? My evaluation of him has nothing to do with emotion - my comments are objective every single time. Maybe you can't compartmentalize like that but I can - and I do when I evaluate my opinions. That bolded statement shows the combination of my subjective view and my objective evaluation perfectly. And I gave you the stats to back it up.

A great example to me is Lamar Jackson now. His first 5 seasons his passing skills were similar to Cam and not seeing a great deal of development (mainly missing games the last 2 years). His running carried him more often than passing - and typically limited his team's success. But the last 2 years after he finally got healthy again you can see his passing has finally developed, and he has worked alot of those mechanical bugs out. In terms of passing he still isn't an elite passer - but he is well above average which is why he is a repeat Pro Bowler and MVP candidate. He is the clear MVP IMO this year.

Thank you for eloquently agreeing with me - when I say this you see how many respond.

Well for one you are cherry picking 2 stats - but which years are you referring to? Career stats? Assuming you mean for their career if you wanna look at stats let's do that. This is Luck vs Cam each time Comp % - 60.8% vs 59.9% - Luck by nearly 1% Int % - 2.5 vs 2.7 - Luck by 10% TD % - 5.2 vs 4.3 - Luck by 20% AY/A - 7.1 vs 6.87 - Luck by 3% Passer Rate - 89.5 vs 85.2 - Luck by 5% Are there other passer stats we should use? If so I can add them. But using these shows the difference between a slightly below average passer, and a slightly above average passer IMO. I would also add that timing matters - Cam can into the league at 60% and 9 years later was still at 60%. Luck came in at 54% and at 67%, 66% over his last 2 full seasons. So I am not even extrapolating here but he was clearly showing consistent elite improvement. The biggest thing that looking at final season stats doesn't show you is variation. Two guys could have the exact same final % yet one ranged from 57-63 while the other ranged from 52-65....which one is better? In my opinion the more consistent one would be considered better. Cam in short stretches was a dominant, accurate passer. In longer stretches he would overthrow simple out routes. Luck was much more consistent and reliable as a passer - and statistically he was significantly better. But to be clear - I would never say Luck was Elite - I think he was trending that way though. Cam was an above average QB but a below average passer. He wasn't reliable in the air for more than 1 game.