Icege

Creed Humphrey was drafted in the 2nd tho?

I never made the point that a center has to have been a wrestler, that is yet another strawman that you are attempting to set up and knock down. I made the point that OL that are also wrestlers are known to have all of those transferrable skills that I listed. The other problem here is that you're looking for blurbs to further your argument without doing any actual research. You say that Wirfs is big but not an unreal wrestler because you saw him get pinned by the best OL in this year's draft and a guy under 6'. That short guy you showed is Aaron Costello and he was 55-0 as a heavyweight. He was a monster, but all you saw was a short guy that you thought would serve to denigrate Wirfs abilities as a wrestler which he also credits with helping him develop as one of the top OL in the NFL. Tristan was 25-3 and the Iowa high school state champion at heavyweight. Tell any wrestler that somebody was a state champ in Iowa as a wrestler, and there is no question over whether or not that guy is a good wrestler: Go quote where I said that centers are more valuable in QBs. At this point we might have to get you renamed to "strawbugs" because you have yet to respond to (nor counter) any supporting arguments that I've made. I don't get where you're getting that this is personal. Aside from joking around and saying to not Matt Rhule this when you were hyperfocused on a one inch height difference I can't see anything that comes across as personal in this direct back-and-forth. Would you mind pointing out where you got that impression?

No doubt. I just don't trust any of the current crop to be franchise QBs. I'd rather gamble a day 3 pick on Aqeel Glass who looks to have a tremendous amount of upside compared to other QB prospects that'll go on day 2. I'd also like to point out re: HBCU QBs the history of racism in the NFL that extends to today.

No to all 3. Take a shot on Aqeel Glass tho with a day 3 selection

You do understand that this entire post of your's is one straw man fallacy after another, yes? None of that addressed the transferrable skillsets that exist between wrestling and football, nor does it address the faux-issue being raised in regards to his size. The concerns were based on Linderbaum's size, which simply didn't hold up when we looked at the facts. I listed plenty of NFL centers that are the same size as Linderbaum along with his success as a wrestler to address the misinformed comments regarding the size of NFL centers as well as Linderbaum's ability to deal with larger opponents. Even if those opponents that you mentioned put the weight on, so will he, so I'm not sure why you're insisting that it's an issue here. The round that those centers were drafted in is irrelevant. They were examples of his size not being an issue. However, I am glad that you brought up the "value" of picking a center in the first round as many Huddlers have voiced that the team has just as good of a shot as finding a center on day three as they do days one and two. That too, is misinformed: 1st: Frank Ragnow, Ryan Kelly, Garrett Bradbury, Alex Mack, Cesar Ruiz 2nd: Mitch Morse, Rodney Hudson, Josh Myers, Creed Humphrey, Justin Britt, Ethan Pocic 3rd: Brandon Linder, Quinn Meinerz, Matt Hennessy, Lloyd Cushenberry III, Connor McGovern (DAL), Michael Deiter 4th: J.C. Tretter, Ben Jones, Tyler Biadasz 5th: Corey Linsley, Connor McGovern (NYJ) 6th: Ryan Jensen, Jason Kelce Drafting a center in the first round is not a bad thing. Drafting one at #6, if he's one of the top 6 players in the draft, is also not a bad thing. Would it be nice to play upon people's beliefs regarding positional value and leverage that against them to regain the team a day two pick while still landing Linderbaum? I'm all for it. However, in regards to the specifics of this thread, he's my favourite prospect in the draft and he's on that list of guys to get at #6. None of the QBs, imo, are worth the #6 pick. What Pro Bowl QB do you see in this draft class? Kenny Pickett? I have the ammo for that debate too if you want to venture into it

Not saying that wrestling alone makes him draftable. It's the transferrable skills from being a successful heavyweight wrestler that matters though in regards to addressing how he will compete against larger individuals. Hand fighting is incredibly important in the trenches. Kawann Short made a lot of money because of his quick burst off of the line and violent hands that kept linemen from latching on to him (up until he lost his burst when the lower body injuries started). A person with a wrestling background is going to have that experience with hand placement, hand fighting, leverage, flexibility, and toughness that are vital to being a competent offensive lineman. I would also argue that wrestling is much, much older than football and that "low man wins" is a carryover from wrestling. Quoting former Packers' DT Datone Jones... But yea, definitely not the sole reason he should be drafted. Just part of the story that makes him more intriguing to me when evaluating.

/wrist

What does Linderbaum pinning the best RT in the NFL show? That the handwringing over his size is uninformed at best. For one, he's literally the size of an NFL center with room to build mass. Second, with a 53-10 record as a heavyweight wrestler he clearly has no issue going head-to-head against other large (or larger) individuals. Third, he bullied the best RT in the NFL. Fourth, how can you be concerned about him getting a flag while at the same time possibly talking up trading down for Penning? If Wirfs looked bigger than Linderbaum, which he should since he's 6'5", that attests even more to Linderbaum's ability to out leverage and win vs. bigger opponents. I'm a huge fan because I've been watching him since last season when I had him as a sleeper day 3 pick for the Panthers (search for the earliest post on the Huddle for "Linderbaum." Is me! ). I'm a big fan of the center position and prefer OL to have a wrestling background so that they know how to deal with DL that have great hands (ie: Kawann Short) along with an innate sense for leverage. He rocketed up to the top offensive lineman in the draft. Duke Mayweather called the kid OL1 for this draft (and called Rashawn Slater OL1 for last year's draft). I've watched more Iowa games in the last two years than I have in my entire life to see that the kid is legit. I don't buy into the whole "That's too high to pick a center!!!" nonsense because only one player touches the ball every single play and that's the center. He's has to get that ball to the QB, the control tower of the offense. He has to call blocking assignments while being on the same page of said QB. He's got to be strong enough to be able to deal with nose tackles weighing over 320lbs while also being quick enough to get up to the second level and de-cleat linebackers. There was an article years ago that I am desperately trying to find that showed that, statistically, teams that lost their centers faired worse than teams that lost their starting QB. However, I do recognize that a lot of other folks do subscribe to the idea that it's too high for a center so I'm very much okay with trading down to acquire additional picks and the best OL in the draft. To add, the center is the second most expensive position on the OL after OT. Having a guy on a rookie deal will allow us to have a strong line at a fraction of the cost of what other teams have to pay. He might be taller than one of the listed centers, but he's the same height as five of them and only an inch shorter than the other five. Don't you Matt Rhule this! The only offensive lineman I'm near as excited for is Ikem Ekwonu. He is a friggin monster.

The idea that Tyler Linderbaum is "undersized" is incredibly uninformed. He's listed at 6'3" 291lbs fresh out of college without an NFL offseason. Now look at the following starting centers: Rodney Hudson (ARI) 6'2" 300 lbs Corey Linsley (LAC) 6'3" 301 lbs J.C. Tretter (CLE) 6'4" 307 lbs Jason Kelce (PHI) 6'3" 295 lbs Ben Jones (TEN) 6'3" 308 lbs Ryan Kelly (IND) 6'4" 309 lbs Matt Hennessy (ATL) 6'4" 295 lbs Garrett Bradbury (MIN) 6'3" 306 lbs Connor McGovern (NYJ) 6'4" 306 lbs Austin Corbett (LAR) 6'4" 306 lbs Matt Paradis (CAR) 6'3" 300 lbs People are really out here trying to get folks to believe that the kid can't put on 10 lbs of muscles under an NFL strength & conditioning program when Creed Humphrey weighed 302 lbs at the combine and is now listed at 320 lbs? I guess he's going to get pushed around by NFL DL just like Tristan Wirfs pushed him around when they... wayminit... Ok.

1. Tyler Linderbaum, C, Iowa 2. Ikem Ekwonu, OL, NC State 3. Charles Cross, OT, Mississippi State 4. Evan Neal, OT, Alabama 5. Kayvon Thibodeaux, EDGE, Oregon 6. Aidan Hutchinson, DE, Michigan Honourable Mention: Kyle Hamilton, S, Notre Dame

Lemme flex thooo!! Grabbed 3 rookie QBs (because I'm heavily targeting Aqeel Glass as my first UDFA (followed by P Matt Araiza and FB Jakobi Buchanon as my second and third UDFAs)). Trying to see if I can at least get a high-end QB2 out of it, hopefully a true QB1. I'm also looking at an RGKnee/CptKirk situation because of Strong's knee. Plan is to have Christensen play LT, Linderbaum start on the interior, and then let the other two inside spots go to the best two out of Elflein/Brown/Parham/Lindstrom. Pierre Strong Jr is more competition for the RB room that is already loaded with CMC/Chuba/Ameer. At this point, I figure at the very least we can still make our strengths stronger in order to not miss a beat should a player be a part of a transaction or injury. The team is set to lose Reddick + Haynes, so we need to replenish the pass rush. YGM has made me eat crow and Brian Burns is Brian Burns, so let's go grab Josh Paschal and Eyioma Uwazurike to provide depth + develop. I'm a big Tommy Tremble fan, but we need a competent TE2. Jelani Woods is a former QB turned TE (an increasing trend after the success of Logan Thomas) as well as Jake Ferguson. Both are a bit more in the line of receiving tight ends, but Tremble is such a good blocker that I don't mind the TE2 being a better receiving threat than they are run blocker. Decobie Durant is filthy value in round 6. That man is GOOD. Put him under Wilks' tutelage alongside Horn, Henderson, STO3, Hartsfield, and whoever else is in that room as the veteran presence. Finally, I was also able to pick up the following 2023 picks while only losing a future seventh-round selection: Washington's second round pick Washington, Indianapolis, and Buffalo's third round picks Baltimore's fifth round pick Linebacker is still a need, as well as safety depth (I tried to fix it all! I swear!). I think this at the very least though gives the team the best chance to compete under its given circumstances while also bringing in quality talent.

Veteran free agent coaching staff additions make the overall staff look much better ngl I'm legit excited to see what Wilks + Campen can do. Especially Wilks w/ Horn + Henderson

Maybe this is because we are gonna spend a pick on The Punt God himself? Is Matt Araiza coming to the Carolinas?

I'm happy for JJ, but irritated even more by the Fletcher selection now.

Pickett at #6 would be the ultimate Rhule move.

Getting through the upcoming 2022 - 2023 NFL cycle is going to be absolutely brutal as a Panthers fan. Unfortunately, as much as some of us might want to be optimistic for the 2023 - 2024 season, it's hard to have faith that we're going to get the right people in place. We know that we have an owner that is going to pay, but will he pick the right people to pay?

Those clips hurt my heart so fuging bad T_T

Agreed on most (if not all!) points. To expand on Pickett though, out of the other known "top QBs" for this draft (Willis, Howell, Corral, Strong, and Ridder), the only QB that fumbled the ball more often and turned it over more often was Desmond Ridder. In Ritter's defense, he did score more often? QB Games Fumbles Fumbles Lost Fumble Avg INTs TOs TO Avg TOT TDs Kenny Pickett 54 28 12 0.5185 32 44 0.8148 101 Sam Howell 37 18 7 0.4865 23 30 0.8108 109 Carson Strong 32 11 4 0.3438 19 23 0.7188 74 Desmond Ridder 50 26 17 0.5200 28 45 0.9000 115 Malik Willis 29 14 5 0.4828 18 23 0.7931 76 Matt Corral 37 13 7 0.3514 23 30 0.8108 75 Admittedly, I'm still traumatized from the Jimmy Clausen era. Pickett could by all means be an average NFL QB, but I don't think that's what we're looking for when we say we want a franchise guy. (I'm all aboard the Aqeel Glass train fwiw)

Extend the man. "He only put up 4 TDs" is such a stupid ass criticism when that was out of only 14 passing TDs thrown by Carolina QBs last season.

Was completely legal and during the middle of the round too.

Can't answer for the other user, but can for myself as I've outright called Pickett's ceiling being a game manager. While he does go through his progressions, there are plenty of throws out there where he either takes the check down (even though he has another man open further downfield) or he forces the ball into a window (that in the NFL is going to be a pick). The latter is due to his lack of arm talent. He can make the NFL throws, but he's not going to be scaring teams with his vertical passing game nor does he have the zip on the ball to make the type of throws we became familiar with during Cam's first tenure. This is further supported by a relatively low YPA (7.3) as well as AYPA (7.5). The hand size might be a meme at this point, but his turnovers aren't. Over his 48 game college career, Pickett has thrown 38 INTs and fumbled the ball 28 times. That's 4 turnovers every 3 games, and the fact that his numbers were consistent up until his senior year when he suddenly started throwing TDs gives me a lot of concern. For all of the talk about his athletic versatility, he is not going to break open big plays by scrambling (especially without a fake slide!). He can extend plays behind the LOS and does well keeping his eyes downfield, but his 1.9yd rushing avg tells all that it needs to in regards to how often he's going to make a play with his legs. I was the first to say it, and I'll keep saying it: Kenny Pickett is Teddy Bridgewater. A smart, pre-snap QB that isn't going to wow you with his scrambling ability nor is he going to impress you with his arm talent. He can get the ball to his playmakers in space, stretching the field horizontally. This is great for college ball, where you can get it to a weapon and just out-athlete the other team. In the NFL though... we have seen how defensive coordinators adjust. Pickett also doesn't spread the ball around. For his senior year, Jordan Addison accounted for 17 TDs, 1593yds, and 100 receptions. 30% of the receptions, 37% of the passing yards, and 40% of Pickett's TDs went to one player in his senior year. This isn't out of the ordinary either, as Maurice Ffrench was Pickett's preferred target before Addison joined and in his final year with the team Ffrench accounted for over a third of Pickett's completions, yardage, and TDs. He's the "safest" pick in that he needs the least coaching up out of all of the other QBs when it comes to mechanics and reading a defense, which are very important skills to have if there is a chance at success in the pros. However, it's hard for me to see him as anything higher than a late 1st round pick, but he'll likely go higher than that simply due to the desperation that comes with needing a QB. To be honest, he'll likely be the most successful out of all of the other QB prospects, but that success will be as a game manager and high-upside QB2. Just like Teddy.

2021: PHI traded its first- and fifth-round selections (6th and 156th overall) to MIA in exchange for first- and fourth-round selections (12th and 123rd overall), and a 2022 first-round selection. 2018: TB traded first- and seventh-round selections (7th and 255th) to BUF in exchange for BUF's first-round selection (12th) and two second-round selections (53rd and 56th) 2016: CLE traded its first- and sixth-round selections (8th and 176th) to TEN in exchange for Tennessee's first- and third-round selections (15th and 76th) as well as its 2017 second-round selection Using those trades as a framework, some potential trades... NYJ: First- and second-round selections (10th and 38th) for first- and sixth-round selections (6th and 181st). WAS: First-, second-, and 2023 fourth-round selections (11th, 42nd, 2023 4th) for first- and 2023 seventh-round selections (6th and 2023 7th) DEN: First-, second-, and third-round selections (9th, 64th, and 75th) for first- and 2023 fifth-round selections (6th and 2023 5th). Good chance at Cross or Linderbaum still being on the board at either of those selections in the 1st, and then the team can opt to chase or wait for a QB in the 2nd (Aqeel Glass pls kthx). The Jets trade would even allow the team an opportunity at trading back and picking up a 3rd or another 4th.

Trade back, acquire a 2nd, and go get him while still being able to get Cross or Linderbaum :3

If y'all were hoping to see the best QB in this draft, he wasn't at the Senior Bowl. He already played at the Collegiate Bowl :3

They're very, very different.