The obvious and less obvious...

[panthers55]

yeah im sure the lack of hollis thomas against atlanta or dallas was why he was just standing around and jogging around the field.

oh wait you're wrong. just like always.

http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/10272310/Sunday-Scoopage:-Light-goes-on-for-Peppers

I am not going to dispute that being called out may have spurred him on somewhat but there is a long history of him being called out to be a leader in 2007 by Richardson and it totally failing. Everyone says that he is not motivated by money or even by other people's opinions. He only seems to respond to his own personal sense of what should or should not happen. So I can believe that if he says he is not playing well that he would pick up his play. Still I think that bringing on Hollis has made a huge impact on the defensive line play the past few weeks. And yes the lack of Thomas against Atlanta and Dallas did make a huge difference. Guess Michael Turner's last 100 yard game. Yeah, against the Panthers in week 2.

I guess i am wrong as much as you are a douche bag.............

Oh.......... Maybe I am wrong alot:D

[Fiz]

I am not going to dispute that being called out may have spurred him on somewhat but there is a long history of him being called out to be a leader in 2007 by Richardson and it totally failing.

i didn't say anything about him being called out. you seem to think it wasn't effort that changed over the past three weeks, when in his own words it was.

Still I think that bringing on Hollis has made a huge impact on the defensive line play the past few weeks. And yes the lack of Thomas against Atlanta and Dallas did make a huge difference. Guess Michael Turner's last 100 yard game. Yeah, against the Panthers in week 2.

uh did I say anything to the contrary?

no, I didn't.

I guess i am wrong as much as you are a douche bag.............

i'd rather be a douche bag than be dumb as hell like you

[twylyght]

I won't go into a ful page rebuttal, because length doesn't necessarily equal quality. Still Davidson for example has not done a great job this year. There have been numerous discussions by opposing players saying that we telegraph our plays and sets and are way too predictable. Moose said last week that on our pass sets opposing teams already know what we are running just by how we line up. Reminds of when Henning would always snap the ball on 1.

The straight ahead dive play on 4th and 1 Sunday when they had 7 guys on the line and all 3 backers in the run gaps was a perfect example. A simple toss play to the outside and our running back would still be running.

As for Peppers, the change in the last 2 games has little to do with his attitude or effort positive or negative. It has more to do with Hollis Thomas. Since we are clogging up the middle and Thomas engages the center and guard, this frees up Peppers to work against a tackle instead of 2 players rushing the passer. he also doesn't need to crash inside to defend the inside on run plays or play action as much allowing him to take an outside rush which is his natural strength. He can also work on his speed rush instead of having to read and react knowing the outside linebacker can support him since he isn't having to support the middle as much as they did the first couple of games.

I could go on but there are 2 places where we would disagree.

I don't think we disagree on the last point. My point was simply that the elite guys in the league make plays regardless. Peppers is getting paid like it regardless.

The straight ahead play on 4th and 1 was one of imposing your will as a team. I think that this is an attitude that stems from Fox, not Davidson as does the rest of the offense that runs like this. His attitude is that if we execute, then there should be no way that other teams can stop us. I agree with you that we aren't good enough for that and that good coaches would find a way around it. I am willing to give Davidson the benefit of the doubt as he is a relatively new coordinator in the ranks of the NFL and taking his cue from the head coach.

[twylyght]

You put out lots of sentences but have plowed no new ground or added unique insight. Hence the reason that it hasn't generated lots of discussion. Show me where you have added any new information or insight worthy of discussion versus rehashing old information and speculating with out additional facts.

I have yet to see anyone to speak of next year's draft strategy the way that I have. I have yet to see anyone speak of Peppers' paycheck and attitude as a morale killer in the locker room. Most importantly, I don't think I've seen anyone talking about the whining attitude stemming from the head coach affecting the mental toughness of the team. People danced around these issues, but have not hit them at their core.

Don't get me wrong. I more than welcome a good discussion on the issue. Some of us on the thread have decided to dumb this down a few notches.

[twylyght]

His completion percentage is high mainly because of the dink and dunk offense that the Deacs run - which is a polar opposite of the Panthers current offense. The other problem that you didn't address is how long he holds on to the ball in the pocket which is something you can not do in the NFL.

It is very true that you can't hold onto the ball long. I happen to think that Skinner is smart enough to catch on and speed up his game. Lots of QBs have done it in the past and I am confident that he can do the same.

Every QB has has a high completion percentage dinks and dunks. It's a way of getting forward progress on every play. Skinner has shown this year that he can definitely toss the long ball if needed. The ultimate in QBing in my opinion is having this ability and knowing when to use it. I think that Ben Rothleisberger and Drew Brees epitomize this very point.

[twylyght]

i didn't say anything about him being called out. you seem to think it wasn't effort that changed over the past three weeks, when in his own words it was.

uh did I say anything to the contrary?

no, I didn't.

i'd rather be a douche bag than be dumb as hell like you

Effort (or lack thereof) is evident on the field regardless of what you say. I am still waiting for you to SAY something. To that point, you're right. If you don't really SAY anything, one can't say anything to the contrary. If you're done being a complete asshat, feel free to join the discussion. Otherwise, shut the fug up and let the adults talk.

[panthers55]

i didn't say anything about him being called out. you seem to think it wasn't effort that changed over the past three weeks, when in his own words it was.

uh did I say anything to the contrary?

no, I didn't.

i'd rather be a douche bag than be dumb as hell like you

Actually I said I could be wrong. I am anything but dumb and yes you are still and always have been a douche bag.

[panthers55]

I don't think we disagree on the last point. My point was simply that the elite guys in the league make plays regardless. Peppers is getting paid like it regardless.

The straight ahead play on 4th and 1 was one of imposing your will as a team. I think that this is an attitude that stems from Fox, not Davidson as does the rest of the offense that runs like this. His attitude is that if we execute, then there should be no way that other teams can stop us. I agree with you that we aren't good enough for that and that good coaches would find a way around it. I am willing to give Davidson the benefit of the doubt as he is a relatively new coordinator in the ranks of the NFL and taking his cue from the head coach.

Imposing your will is a term that indicates that where you have equal or often superior numbers you can through sheer effort dominate the situation. Trying to run straight ahead into a run blitz with a stacked defense in the middle isn't imposing your will it is demonstrating stupidity when an end around would result is an easy first down and likely touchdown.

And Davidson has been around long enough to be able to figure out basic football logic.

[2jakefansinva]

Don't stop now.....I just got comfortable. :lurk5:

[panthers55]

I have yet to see anyone to speak of next year's draft strategy the way that I have. I have yet to see anyone speak of Peppers' paycheck and attitude as a morale killer in the locker room. Most importantly, I don't think I've seen anyone talking about the whining attitude stemming from the head coach affecting the mental toughness of the team. People danced around these issues, but have not hit them at their core.

Don't get me wrong. I more than welcome a good discussion on the issue. Some of us on the thread have decided to dumb this down a few notches.

But even though you talked about several subjects where is the evidence that you are remotely correct. For example Pepper's paycheck may be the opposite of a morale killer for example. Other players see the big payday and say, that is great I am looking for them to overpay me as well rather than feeling he isn't earning it. And how do you know that Fox whines at all in the locker room or what is being said behind closed doors? What you hear on the radio and through the newspapers suggest he makes excuses for his players and fails to throw them under the bus keeping things in-house. Again this could be a big positive and totally opposite of what he says behind closed doors. Again failing to be a morale crusher.

Finally morale is likely poor because they are losing and that will be there whether it was the defense last year letting the team down or the offense this year. And if they go on a winning streak everything will be better.

So once again you threw a lot of stuff on the wall hoping something sticks but nothing to suggest you have any unique knowledge of the situation or even have talked with players, read what they are saying, or anything else. Hence the reason no one is jumping on the bandwagon. Maybe no one is talking about things like you are because you are out there by yourself.

Just sayin.......................................................

[twylyght]

Imposing your will is a term that indicates that where you have equal or often superior numbers you can through sheer effort dominate the situation. Trying to run straight ahead into a run blitz with a stacked defense in the middle isn't imposing your will it is demonstrating stupidity when an end around would result is an easy first down and likely touchdown.

And Davidson has been around long enough to be able to figure out basic football logic.

You say that after the fact. When we did it with success last year and other teams have formed a legacy off of it throughout their NFL tenure then it isn't a necessarily a matter of intelligence. Some teams are intelligent about it (New England hits them where they aren't). Some teams try to be it (us - here and now). Others have done it to great success (Pittsburg, Giants, Redskins, Broncos, etc to SB championships).

Even the announcers in their myopia stated that we are a power running team going against the worst run defense in the NFL and it was a "no brainer".

[twylyght]

First of all, I have tried to be civil. Since you insist on being ugly....

Evidence of being remotely correct:

"I have yet to see anyone to speak of next year's draft strategy the way that I have."

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4489378&name=schefter_adam&addata=2009_insdr_mod_front_xxx_xxx&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fespn%2fblog%2findex%3fentryID%3d4489378%26name%3dschefter_adam%26addata%3d2009_insdr_mod_front_xxx_xxx

"I have yet to see anyone speak of Peppers' paycheck and attitude as a morale killer in the locker room."

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcsouth/post/_/id/3678/beason-calls-out-peppers

Beason is saying what no one else will... and he got shot down for it.

Do I need to link this for you?

"Most importantly, I don't think I've seen anyone talking about the whining attitude stemming from the head coach affecting the mental toughness of the team."

Grab a DVR of the game and look at Fox on the sideline. If the inept TV crew can see it, then it can't be more obvious. That is what I was referring to, please re-read if you must.

You talked about morale being bad because we are losing.... and then berate me for stating the obvious?

How about you prove me wrong and engage in civil discourse instead of being a blowhard dickwad with tossing your half-assed poo remarks that barely rate above what Fiz tosses on the fire? I'm not here to garner a bandwagon. Anyone that's seen me on this and other forums know that I care el zippo about it. The fact that you come off spouting half-thought retorts suggests that you are used to verbally sparring with mental midgets to come out feeling good about yourself.

So... tell you what. You are so in the know... give me five unique insights about this weeks game and see how it rates by next Monday.

Just sayin

[panthers55]

First of all, I have tried to be civil. Since you insist on being ugly....

Evidence of being remotely correct:

"I have yet to see anyone to speak of next year's draft strategy the way that I have."

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4489378&name=schefter_adam&addata=2009_insdr_mod_front_xxx_xxx&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fespn%2fblog%2findex%3fentryID%3d4489378%26name%3dschefter_adam%26addata%3d2009_insdr_mod_front_xxx_xxx

"I have yet to see anyone speak of Peppers' paycheck and attitude as a morale killer in the locker room."

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcsouth/post/_/id/3678/beason-calls-out-peppers

Beason is saying what no one else will... and he got shot down for it.

Do I need to link this for you?

"Most importantly, I don't think I've seen anyone talking about the whining attitude stemming from the head coach affecting the mental toughness of the team."

Grab a DVR of the game and look at Fox on the sideline. If the inept TV crew can see it, then it can't be more obvious. That is what I was referring to, please re-read if you must.

You talked about morale being bad because we are losing.... and then berate me for stating the obvious?

How about you prove me wrong and engage in civil discourse instead of being a blowhard dickwad with tossing your half-assed poo remarks that barely rate above what Fiz tosses on the fire? I'm not here to garner a bandwagon. Anyone that's seen me on this and other forums know that I care el zippo about it. The fact that you come off spouting half-thought retorts suggests that you are used to verbally sparring with mental midgets to come out feeling good about yourself.

So... tell you what. You are so in the know... give me five unique insights about this weeks game and see how it rates by next Monday.

Just sayin

You ask for cIvil discourse and then engage in a diatribe of name calling? Go back and show me where I did the same. Indicating that you are not remotely correct is a far cry from calling someone a dickwad. if you want civil discourse practice it yourself. Note that I still did not respond with namecalling even after you did except back to Fiz because he likes it.

Secondly, nothing in your links indicates any new information or insight. The rookie salary cap has been discussed for over a year. And your insight about Hurney purposely giving up picks because of the potemtial rookie cap makes no sense. First of all there is at least a 50% chance it won't happen so why operate as if it will. Secondly Hurney would logically be collecting draft picks if there were going to be a cap since he can accumulate more talent as a cheaper price. The rookie salary cap won't limit what the teams can spend but how much rookies can earn. So it won't limit Hurney as you erroneously surmise but allow him to save money on rookies to spend on the vets. The reason no one else is discussing it like you are is because you are off base and have your facts wrong.

Lets talk about Beason. He publically said he was going to call out Peppers in public for his lack of production. That was not a morale issue but his ill conceived belief that as a captain of the defense he needed to do something. Beason calling out Peppers was about his performance not about getting overpaid for what he was doing. Money and morale weren't the issue, performance on the field was as a captain and leader on the team. Plus from all accounts Beason never went through with the conversation anyway and was criticized by players for suggesting it.

Whining on the sidelines by Fox as a justification for a lack of toughness in the locker room. What does it mean when he claps on the sidelines when we turn over the ball? Is he happy about it? I reread your remarks and they make no sense. Jake is accused of whining on the field, does that suggest he isn't tough. By all accounts that isn't true, either

Obviously you seem the one hurt when folks have largely ignored your self proclaimed insightful remarks and you are the one upset about it. I post on here for enjoyment and conversation not to argue or prove folks wrong. Omce the conversation gets nasty as you seem to desire, I usually bail so feel free to go on and on. But I don't have to impress you or create insights for your dissection. Honestly folks who make prediction threads or suggest they have unique insight are usually way off based anyway. I don't proclaim imsider knowledge or access to the players or FO. I just read what it is being said by those in the know and make comments and voice opinions based on the facts as I interpret them. And those things are often done after the fact as they should be instead of before the event. Sorry but I didn't have a flash forward.

[twylyght]

You speak of civil discourse as if we are stupid and don't understand nuance and insinuation. You speak of your opinion as if it were insider fact and offer no proof to back it up. You then then use phrases like "throwing comments against the wall and hoping it sticks" and "just sayin" as if that weren't meant to insult.

You're like a woman who likes to play the highbrow snob and then claim umbrage when someone calls you on your poo. Save the stupid and girlfriend games for someone naive enough to accept your conversational skills as authority. If you truly kept it civil, then I would have done the same. Instead, you can expect nothing less than a cannon in turn for your brick.