Rivera Presser at 12:10

[ickmule]

4 hours ago, WoahW said:

I don’t doubt Cam lied about injuries just like others have, it’s up to the coaches and medical staff to call them out on the BS anyways. Like the Bucs game where everyone saw his ass limping and Ron said huh? He did? 
 

You can try and run him down all you want but the poo ain’t gonna work kid sorry 

Kid, lol.  I’m not running anyone down, I’m just saying that it’s as much his fault as anyones, but to some he can do no wrong.  

[ickmule]

1 hour ago, raz said:

gonna ride that pony til it falls over dead.   what does that count for again?   what do we have as a result of that?  

Exactly zero....but you knew that.  

[WoahW]

27 minutes ago, ickmule said:

Kid, lol.  I’m not running anyone down, I’m just saying that it’s as much his fault as anyones, but to some he can do no wrong.  

I agreed with you but I’ve seen you’re other posts. You intentionally post obtuse things to fit your narrative. Was he an idiot for hiding his injury absolutely but plenty of other players did and will do the same thing it’s on the trained professionals to prevent that. 

[WoahW]

Are we really acting like Cam wasn’t hurt? Holy fug how fast do people forget. 30 years old is not the end of the world for an athlete who heals faster then us on the outside looking in (it’s literally proven by science) and we are giving him time to heal. Why are we acting like he is cripple? That’s the part I’m never going to understand in all this. Like 30 is too old to actually come back when that’s actual in his prime pretty damn near the beginning of it 

[ickmule]

18 minutes ago, WoahW said:

I agreed with you but I’ve seen you’re other posts. You intentionally post obtuse things to fit your narrative. Was he an idiot for hiding his injury absolutely but plenty of other players did and will do the same thing it’s on the trained professionals to prevent that. 

Won’t deny I’ve never been a fan of Cam and that goes back to his Auburn days, but I have no narrative.  He’s just not a great QB....an exceptional athlete, yes.....but not an exceptional QB.  

[1of10Charnatives]

5 minutes ago, WoahW said:

Are we really acting like Cam wasn’t hurt? Holy fug how fast do people forget. 30 years old is not the end of the world for an athlete who heals faster then us on the outside looking in (it’s literally proven by science) and we are giving him time to heal. Why are we acting like he is cripple? That’s the part I’m never going to understand in all this. Like 30 is too old to actually come back when that’s actual in his prime pretty damn near the beginning of it 

It’s actually also proven by science that 30 is a key point where on average athletic performance and healing from injury declines after peaking in the late 20’s. Furthermore, you can’t have followed Cam’s career without being keenly aware he has taken far more physical punishment than players at his age and position have typically taken.

While many qb’s excel as passers into their 30’s, this is because sticking around that long has enabled the mental part of their skill set to compensate for any loss in physical ability. I would suggest that part of the team’s mismanagement of Cam’s career includes not helping him and/or insisting that he evolve into more of a pocket passer as his career progressed, precisely to avoid the kind of situation we’re now stuck in.

Asserting that Cam is entering his prime might be true if his game had evolved in this direction. But given that he clearly still needs to run to be effective, it’s not reasonable imo to pretend he should be comparable to other qb’s performing at a high level in their 30’s when they don’t run and take hits the way he does.

[WoahW]

31 minutes ago, 1of10Charnatives said:

It’s actually also proven by science that 30 is a key point where on average athletic performance and healing from injury declines after peaking in the late 20’s. Furthermore, you can’t have followed Cam’s career without being keenly aware he has taken far more physical punishment than players at his age and position have typically taken.

While many qb’s excel as passers into their 30’s, this is because sticking around that long has enabled the mental part of their skill set to compensate for any loss in physical ability. I would suggest that part of the team’s mismanagement of Cam’s career includes not helping him and/or insisting that he evolve into more of a pocket passer as his career progressed, precisely to avoid the kind of situation we’re now stuck in.

Asserting that Cam is entering his prime might be true if his game had evolved in this direction. But given that he clearly still needs to run to be effective, it’s not reasonable imo to pretend he should be comparable to other qb’s performing at a high level in their 30’s when they don’t run and take hits the way he does.

Are we ignoring what he did in the air last year with a bum shoulder? Add in the emergence of CMC and we don’t need him to run the way he did, he’ll just the threat of it adds to him. Acting like he hasn’t improved as a passer is a joke. He has also not ever been given time to heal to 100% which plays a huge part in what we are seeing now. If he was sat when he was hurt last year before waiting or even the year before we might be speaking a different tune. I still believe he can come back and be an elite QB with the threat of running adding a dimension why most people are discounting that I’ll never know. Players like him are rare to find and after 2 injuries we’re ready to pack it up and say fug it? How many injuries did Manning, Farve, hell even Brady have? 
 

The obvious thing to do is see if he can return this season if not, next year we see what he has and make a determination then there’s no reason to not give our elite player a chance before moving. Everyone heals can he get back to old Cam, who knows but it’s worth finding out before discarding him 

[1of10Charnatives]

56 minutes ago, WoahW said:

Are we ignoring what he did in the air last year with a bum shoulder? Add in the emergence of CMC and we don’t need him to run the way he did, he’ll just the threat of it adds to him. Acting like he hasn’t improved as a passer is a joke. He has also not ever been given time to heal to 100% which plays a huge part in what we are seeing now. If he was sat when he was hurt last year before waiting or even the year before we might be speaking a different tune. I still believe he can come back and be an elite QB with the threat of running adding a dimension why most people are discounting that I’ll never know. Players like him are rare to find and after 2 injuries we’re ready to pack it up and say fug it? How many injuries did Manning, Farve, hell even Brady have? 
 

The obvious thing to do is see if he can return this season if not, next year we see what he has and make a determination then there’s no reason to not give our elite player a chance before moving. Everyone heals can he get back to old Cam, who knows but it’s worth finding out before discarding him 

Let me clarify a few things:

1. Nowhere did I assert that Cam has not improved as a passer, so please do not assign this position to me. What I am arguing is that his improvement as a passer has come mostly belatedly ie last year, and when you factor in the shoulder injury, it is impossible to know whether he can be an effective enough passer to steeply curtail his running and still perform at a high level. My argument was less about his passing than about the fact his running has not been dialed back over time, and this lead to the situation we are faced with now.

2. It is fine for you to believe that he can come back and and be an elite level qb, please do not misunderstand the nuance of where our positions differ here: I hope Cam is capable of this, but I disagree with your premise that science supports the notion this is likely. I think science and circumstances I've already discussed suggest it's more likely he will be unable to perform at previous levels as a runner. The shoulder injury makes his ability to perform as a passer on deep routes a question mark, but if he can heal completely, he should still be okay there. A huge part of the equation we're not discussing is how willing Cam is to become more of a pure pocket passer in order to extend his career, because I think the cold hard truth is that at this point given his age and injury history, to allow him to continue to run at anything other than an occasional rate is foolhardy and a disservice both to Cam and the team's significant financial investment in it's highest paid player. Please name for me all the franchise qb's who continued to run 8 to 10 times per game past the age of 30 and had success and longevity doing so. Cam is a unique athlete, but he is still only human, and his body is telling him and us that right now.

3. If Cam accepts the notion he needs to transition away from designed runs and stop putting his body on the line for qb sneaks on 4th down, the success he had prior to the Pittsburgh game last season may suggest it's possible he could evolve into a pocket passer and extend his career significantly. To be honest, if I were Tepper or Hurney, regardless of any other considerations, I'd kind of want Cam to sit down, look me in the eye, and tell me he understand why this sort of transistion is necessary for both his benefit and the team's before I'd be willing to extend him. This conversation would be after and in addition to coming back and proving he can still play. I agree that CMC's presence helps take some of the load, but a qb being able to scramble or run on his own is a qualitatively different threat to a defense than just having an amazing back, so the one does not absolutely substitute for the other imo.

4. Manning, Favre and Brady in particular are not comparable to Cam when considering injury and career longevity because while they played the same position, they were protected as qb's while Cam's physical running style combined with officials unwillingness to protect him from blatantly illegal hits by failing to call obvious penalties means he has taken far more physical punishment than any of the players you mentioned at that point in their careers. No reasonable person can say that Brady and Newton have had rules regarding contact with the qb evenly enforced and this has had negative consequences for Cam's health and almost certainly the longevity of his career.

I agree it is critical to assess what Newton is capable of before even considering letting him go. There is too much at stake to do otherwise. However it's beginning to look more and more like this may have to be next year rather than this, which is less than ideal, but at this point the overriding consideration is that he be 100% healthy when evaluated.

[SBiii]

Cam needs to strap up and get his fanny back in there asap.

No excuses.