Tebow setup to fail - Opinion on NFL.com

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[theyhateme45]

Sam Brafford had a good rookie year. Mark Sanchez had a good rookie year.

Persoanally I wouldn't compare what Bradford and Mark Came into to What Jimmy did.

Sam was the #1 overall pick for a reason, Jimmy fell to the middle of the second for a reason. I think to expect the same kind of play from Jimmy in his work as from Bradford is very unrealistic.

Also Mark was also a top pick, and he came into his rookie year with a much better team with multiple pro bowl players.

-I will get into developing QB's in a minute

Fox did a lot with less?

Uh... maybe you missed the past decade where Julius Peppers, a number of other D-Linemen, Steve Smith, a number of our O-line men, and several of our Running Backs made it to the Pro-Bowl.

Jake Delhomme even made it once.

The coaching had an impact, sure, but all those players were accounted for their individual execution. Now... that's a testament to bringnig in talent on a team more than anything.

I disagree here. I think the panthers had some good players, but So did most other teams. We weren't the only team with a couple of pro bowl players.

I personally think there were years when we over acheived at 8-8 considering injuries and the talent left on the field.

Like I said, my measure of a coach is do I think most would come in and be able to easily duplicate then exceed what he did. With the talent level of other teams in the NFL during that time, and the lack of a true consistent All-Pro QB, my answer is NO.

Now if you believe the answer to that question is yes, well then that's your opinion and we will disagree. But the teams who have been consistent had top notch QB play... Manning, Brady, Mcnabb, Big Ben, Warner, ect. are the one's who has a high level of success

..... But John Fox is NOT a great QB developing Head Coach. Jake Delhomme came here with a World Bowl win, and several years experience as a backup in the NGL.

The Golden Calf of Bristol needs a Head Coach who can bring up a rookie QB. He does not have that in Fox.

I disagree here also. I don;t really believe coaches develop top notch consistent QB's. I believe those players all ready have top notch talent (Which is hard to find, Carolina is not the only one to struggle here, and is the reason why every year teams are trying to find that next stud).

So I don't believe, Manning, Brady, Brees, Rivers, A-Rod, Big Ben, Vick, are only where they are at today because they had a "Good QB developing" coach teaching them. I think those players with their talent would have shined with a number of different coaches.

Some players have it, some don't.... That is why 1 coach can stink it up with QB's... then all of a sudden a top talent falls into his lap, now he's winning and is now all of a sudden a good coach. He didn;t become better at developing the talent, he just had a rare top notch prospect fall into his lap.

If I look around the NFL present and past, I am more of the belief that in most situations, the QB makes the coach, not the opposite way around. That's why teams without great QB's see frequent coach turnover, while one's with great QB's have much less turnover.

[MadHatter]

The Golden Calf of Bristol was set up to fail as a QB the day he got drafted.

[theyhateme45]

The Golden Calf of Bristol was set up to fail as a QB the day he got drafted.

:lol:

[blackcatgrowl]

Persoanally I wouldn't compare what Bradford and Mark Came into to What Jimmy did.

Sam was the #1 overall pick for a reason, Jimmy fell to the middle of the second for a reason. I think to expect the same kind of play from Jimmy in his work as from Bradford is very unrealistic.

:icon_bs:

Tom Brady wasn't a #1 pick, but is arguably the most prolific QB in the past decade. There have been tons of #1 picks fail. Where you are drafted doesn't mean poo as to your ability to play.

I expect our starting QB to be the most efficient starting QB in the league. I'm not going to make excuses for him if he isn't, even if they sound valid... the guy has to execute.

And Brafford came into a MESS. Their best player at the time was (is) a RB who is there for the money. Pretty much unremarkable teammates at the other positions. Yet, he elevated them.

Also Mark was also a top pick, and he came into his rookie year with a much better team with multiple pro bowl players.

The 2010 Panthers had multiple Pro Bowlers from years past too... as you mention below.

I disagree here. I think the panthers had some good players, but So did most other teams. We weren't the only team with a couple of pro bowl players.

I personally think there were years when we over acheived at 8-8 considering injuries and the talent left on the field.

Like I said, my measure of a coach is do I think most would come in and be able to easily duplicate then exceed what he did. With the talent level of other teams in the NFL during that time, and the lack of a true consistent All-Pro QB, my answer is NO.

Now if you believe the answer to that question is yes, well then that's your opinion and we will disagree. But the teams who have been consistent had top notch QB play... Manning, Brady, Mcnabb, Big Ben, Warner, ect. are the one's who has a high level of success

This actually proves my point...

Fox did not want to take a chance on a QB in Free Agency or the Draft. He got Delhomme, a slightly above-average QB for his good years as a Panther... and rested on his laurels.

He didn't develop Delhomme. Moore was brought in as a possible heir apparent... and look what happened there?

I disagree here also. I don;t really believe coaches develop top notch consistent QB's.

So I don't believe, Manning, Brady, Brees, Rivers, A-Rod, Big Ben, Vick, are only where they are at today because they had a "Good QB developing" coach teaching them. I think those players with their talent would have shined with a number of different coaches.

Wow... I think you should take the time to investigate how much of an impact coaching CAN affect talented players.

But here's an example. Brees at San Diego... had some flashes here and there... but people looked at him like... well.. Delhomme. Maybe above average... obviously Norv Turner didn't think too highly of him, as they booted him for Rivers.

But Brees comes to the Saints and blows it up. The Saints OC... Pete Carmichael Jr. has a lot to do with that... in fact... here...

http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2009/08/gregg_williams_might_get_a.html

"Pete handles all the quarterback meetings with (quarterbacks coach) Joe (Lombardi)," Payton said. "Pete sits in on all the installs. He's involved in the installs. He handles the staff. (Friday night) for example, practice is ending, the staff is meeting at the hotel and Pete's running the meeting. I'm not there. That happens a lot. He's done a great job."

Carmichael was the quarterbacks/passing game coach last season and while he might not get too much credit for it, his quarterback Drew Brees did throw for 5,069 yards, 15 short of Dan Marino's all-time single-season record.

"He came here from San Diego with a pretty diverse background and each year he's done a great job with not only working with the quarterbacks specifically, but working with the group in general," Payton said. "He's had two opportunities to leave as a coordinator and to his credit he's stayed with this system and this offense. He's a huge asset for me and he is very talented."

Another key role for Carmichael will be helping Payton and Brees in their decisions for in-game adjustments.

"His role on game day is on the sidelines he'll work hand in hand with the quarterbacks as they come off, communicate with Joe Lombardi," Payton said. "They'll go through the pictures with Drew (Brees) and the quarterbacks and really be my voice or ear in the passing game with my thoughts each series. I have a lot of trust in him. He works very hard at it, is very diligent and very thorough. He's done a great job."

Good coaching makes a huge difference on the field.

Some players have it, some don't.... That is why 1 coach can stink it up with QB's... then all of a sudden a top talent falls into his lap, now he's winning and is now all of a sudden a good coach. He didn;t become better at developing the talent, he just had a rare top notch prospect fall into his lap.

It's not that simple. Talented players who are frustrated with play calling, or coaching, WILL have problems on the field. Sorry.

If I look around the NFL present and past, I am more of the belief that in most situations, the QB makes the coach, not the opposite way around. That's why teams without great QB's see frequent coach turnover, while one's with great QB's have much less turnover.

Nope. It goes hand in hand.

Again... lets use San Diego... Norv Turner is not considered by all a great coach. MANY San Diego fans want him gone... many think less of him than we thought of Fox at the end.

So... Phillip Rivers comes in... plays phenominally. But they get knocked out of the play offs to a Wild Card team in 2009, and failed to make the play offs last year. They had the #1 defense last year too.

Good coaching is required for good QB talent to pay off.

The Golden Calf of Bristol has talent. He just needs some good coaching. Fox will not help him in that regard.

[theyhateme45]

It's cool... I think we just disagree over certain talent vs development ideas... But for argument sake.....

:icon_bs:

Tom Brady wasn't a #1 pick, but is arguably the most prolific QB in the past decade. There have been tons of #1 picks fail. Where you are drafted doesn't mean poo as to your ability to play.

I expect our starting QB to be the most efficient starting QB in the league. I'm not going to make excuses for him if he isn't, even if they sound valid... the guy has to execute.

And Brafford came into a MESS. Their best player at the time was (is) a RB who is there for the money. Pretty much unremarkable teammates at the other positions. Yet, he elevated them.

Tom Brady is what we call an anomoly. To expect in their first year the same from a #1 overall QB and a 2nd, 6th or whatever round QB is iff base IMO. The truth is if you look at success of QB's by what round they are in, we will clearly see %QB drafted in the first round that has success is far greater than the success % of qb's drafted in late rounds.

Though first round qb's bust, and late round QB's succeed it is not the norm...It is why if you draft a 1st round QB you have higher expectations because those guys are drafted with "less risk" or a higher upside than those in the later rounds.

If you expected Jimmy Clausen, 2nd round pick to be the most efficent passer in the league his rookie year... Your expectations where wayyy too high an unrealistic IMO. I mean what % of qb's drafted in the 2nd round by any team has accomplished that, or anything close to it their rookie season?

Yes Bradford came into a mess... more of a mess than Jimmy... But the difference is #1 overall pick talent (See above for that).

The 2010 Panthers had multiple Pro Bowlers from years past too... as you mention below.

I know we are debating, but you can not tell me that you will compare the talent of the 2010 panthers team overall (including injuries). To the NY Jets team Mark's rookie year.... After our vetern purge, after smith injury and we had to start 2 rookie wr's... moving players around on defense... key injuries... If you REALLY believe those teams are equal, then we won't even be able to understand each other.

This actually proves my point...

Fox did not want to take a chance on a QB in Free Agency or the Draft. He got Delhomme, a slightly above-average QB for his good years as a Panther... and rested on his laurels.

He didn't develop Delhomme. Moore was brought in as a possible heir apparent... and look what happened there?

#1 What FA QB where we supposed to bring in? Keep in mind Jake was having sme success, and had the baking of the locker room... If you want to bring in a quality FA QB he is going to expect to start... When expecatations are for you to win the division or whatever, your not bringing in a top QB via FA.... I don't know any team that has.

Moore didn;t have it. There a teams that draft's Qb's on top of Qb's on top of QB's.... doesn't mean just because you draft a guy he is going to have all the skills and tools to get it done in the NFL...

Wow... I think you should take the time to investigate how much of an impact coaching CAN affect talented players.

But here's an example. Brees at San Diego... had some flashes here and there... but people looked at him like... well.. Delhomme. Maybe above average... obviously Norv Turner didn't think too highly of him, as they booted him for Rivers.

But Brees comes to the Saints and blows it up. The Saints OC... Pete Carmichael Jr. has a lot to do with that... in fact... here...

http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2009/08/gregg_williams_might_get_a.html

Good coaching makes a huge difference on the field.

It's not that simple. Talented players who are frustrated with play calling, or coaching, WILL have problems on the field. Sorry.

Nope. It goes hand in hand.

Again... lets use San Diego... Norv Turner is not considered by all a great coach. MANY San Diego fans want him gone... many think less of him than we thought of Fox at the end.

So... Phillip Rivers comes in... plays phenominally. But they get knocked out of the play offs to a Wild Card team in 2009, and failed to make the play offs last year. They had the #1 defense last year too.

Good coaching is required for good QB talent to pay off.

The Golden Calf of Bristol has talent. He just needs some good coaching. Fox will not help him in that regard.

All talk about all this at once. So why is Jim Sorgi garbage??? I mean he get's the same coaching as Peyton, looks at the same tape? Why could he not develope into a solid #2??? Was it the coaches fault? Or maybe Sorgi just didn't have....

So if Chase Daniels in N.O doesn't turn into a pro bowl calibre player does that mean they can develope QB's in NO?? You just said they could... so Chase should be the second coming... Or maybe Brees just has skills, football talents and IQ he doesn't.

San Diego was in a good position with Brees and Rivers... They had 2 capable QB's... no need to keep both. It's not like after Brees left Rivers flopped. That same system you criticized in SD developed Rivers into a top NFL QB. So maybe it is the actual players and not the coaches.

Here is how much I think QB effects coaches...

Put Mike singletary on the Colts with Manning, and Caldwell in San Fran with Alex Smith and Troy Smith.... Let's guess who would be out of a job right now.

Let's stay on the 49ers.... lets say San fran sucks this year... (Jim couldn't develope Alex)... He gets Luck next year... Now the team is dominate... Does that mean he can develope QB's??? Or did he just get lucky and luck into luck... cause when he had alex... it didn't work, but with luck... the talent and skill set needed to succed is there!

[blackcatgrowl]

FYI - I felt I should mention I'm enjoying this discussion. It's rare you can disagree with someone on The Huddle without the insults flying and butt hurt abounding. Very refreshing. Thank you.

Tom Brady is what we call an anomoly. To expect in their first year the same from a #1 overall QB and a 2nd, 6th or whatever round QB is iff base IMO. The truth is if you look at success of QB's by what round they are in, we will clearly see %QB drafted in the first round that has success is far greater than the success % of qb's drafted in late rounds.

Though first round qb's bust, and late round QB's succeed it is not the norm...It is why if you draft a 1st round QB you have higher expectations because those guys are drafted with "less risk" or a higher upside than those in the later rounds.

I can't find it at the moment, but there was a study that was brought up recently that showed how ALL positions fared based on round picked, given certain criteria of success in the league. It found that there wasn't a distinct connection between the draft round and what success to expect in the NFL. I believe it did mention QBs as following the same trends.

If you expected Jimmy Clausen, 2nd round pick to be the most efficent passer in the league his rookie year... Your expectations where wayyy too high an unrealistic IMO. I mean what % of qb's drafted in the 2nd round by any team has accomplished that, or anything close to it their rookie season?

I expect every team active member of the Panthers to be the best at their position every year at the start of the year. As each game goes by, I scale those expectations back given their success or failure on the field. A couple years, for a couple players, I've not had to scale back at all (Smitty, Pep).

Keep in mind, Jimmy wasn't the starter game 1. Moore was. Both of their failures were in one hand their lack execution, but in the other, it was obvious poor coaching from a lame duck.

Yes Bradford came into a mess... more of a mess than Jimmy... But the difference is #1 overall pick talent (See above for that).

Alex Smith couldn't right the ship in San Fran... is it a talent issue? Or is it coaching? Smith is still there. His original coach isn't.

I know we are debating, but you can not tell me that you will compare the talent of the 2010 panthers team overall (including injuries). To the NY Jets team Mark's rookie year.... After our vetern purge, after smith injury and we had to start 2 rookie wr's... moving players around on defense... key injuries... If you REALLY believe those teams are equal, then we won't even be able to understand each other.

Actually, baring a couple injuries and some piss poor play at QB, and a lame duck coaching... the talent level we had last year was much better than our 2-14 record shows. Why do you think we resigned almost everyone from the core of the team?

Think JR or Hurney felt it was the players not getting it done... or the HC?

#1 What FA QB where we supposed to bring in? Keep in mind Jake was having sme success, and had the baking of the locker room... If you want to bring in a quality FA QB he is going to expect to start... When expecatations are for you to win the division or whatever, your not bringing in a top QB via FA.... I don't know any team that has.

Again... this proves the point. Fox was happy with Delhomme's above average, but not super-star play. He turned the keys over to him after the Super Bowl run. Delhomme became our defacto Franchise QB.... but wasn't a Franchise quality player. It wasn't until the total breakdown of 2009, that Fox had to part ways, and cried about it. Literally.

When Delhomme had his surgery... they should have started shopping the market. I doubt Fox would have lost his job had we brought in someone to really, truely compete.

Moore didn;t have it. There a teams that draft's Qb's on top of Qb's on top of QB's.... doesn't mean just because you draft a guy he is going to have all the skills and tools to get it done in the NFL...

Same applies to the #1 pick overall.

All talk about all this at once. So why is Jim Sorgi garbage??? I mean he get's the same coaching as Peyton, looks at the same tape? Why could he not develope into a solid #2??? Was it the coaches fault? Or maybe Sorgi just didn't have....

But how much of the development of Manning was done during Dungy's time?

So if Chase Daniels in N.O doesn't turn into a pro bowl calibre player does that mean they can develope QB's in NO?? You just said they could... so Chase should be the second coming... Or maybe Brees just has skills, football talents and IQ he doesn't.

Who knows? Hypothetical question. No way to answer.

San Diego was in a good position with Brees and Rivers... They had 2 capable QB's... no need to keep both. It's not like after Brees left Rivers flopped. That same system you criticized in SD developed Rivers into a top NFL QB. So maybe it is the actual players and not the coaches.

Here is how much I think QB effects coaches...

Put Mike singletary on the Colts with Manning, and Caldwell in San Fran with Alex Smith and Troy Smith.... Let's guess who would be out of a job right now.

Caldwell has yet to seal the deal with one of the greatest QBs in recent history. If Manning retires without another ring, Caldwell will not be remembered as a great coach. In fact, I don't know anyone who thinks of him that way. In fact, one of the worst games I've see Manning have was the year Caldwell took the reins.

Let's stay on the 49ers.... lets say San fran sucks this year... (Jim couldn't develope Alex)... He gets Luck next year... Now the team is dominate... Does that mean he can develope QB's??? Or did he just get lucky and luck into luck... cause when he had alex... it didn't work, but with luck... the talent and skill set needed to succed is there!

Again hypothetical. I can't answer a question about what factors will play into a scenario that could or could not happen. I will mention again that Smith is still with San Fran... so it can't all be the player here.

Which... again.. tells me for success in the NFL, talent and good coaching have to go hand in hand.... great coachs can have pooty players, and great players can have pooty coaches, but you won't see great players have great success without them having great coaches too.

[theyhateme45]

FYI - I felt I should mention I'm enjoying this discussion. It's rare you can disagree with someone on The Huddle without the insults flying and butt hurt abounding. Very refreshing. Thank you.

The feeling is mutural :cheers2:

I can't find it at the moment, but there was a study that was brought up recently that showed how ALL positions fared based on round picked, given certain criteria of success in the league. It found that there wasn't a distinct connection between the draft round and what success to expect in the NFL. I believe it did mention QBs as following the same trends.

If you can find that, where it applies to QB, then yes, I will say you are corrcet. I know I've done some haphazard research myself on the subject, and when I did I was noticing the trend of 1st round QB's succeding at a higher rate than later round qb's... I guess until 1 of us can show hard facts to back up our statements I'll leave this alone.

I expect every team active member of the Panthers to be the best at their position every year at the start of the year. As each game goes by, I scale those expectations back given their success or failure on the field. A couple years, for a couple players, I've not had to scale back at all (Smitty, Pep).

Okay, noted, just a different way of thinking.

Keep in mind, Jimmy wasn't the starter game 1. Moore was. Both of their failures were in one hand their lack execution, but in the other, it was obvious poor coaching from a lame duck.

Once again I guess this is just where our opinions really differ. I think regardless of who was calling the plays... those 2 weren;t going to have much success.

I feel you have to have a QB that can execute to allow you to do different things and keep the defense off guard.

Example: A-Rod is great at sensing pressure in the pocket, manuvering, and keeping his eyes down field and making a play. This keeps the defense honest, and allows the Offensive Coordinator to do more. If the QB can't convert, it really limits the creativity and flexability of the offense.

Take Cam and Jimmy... (I know it's early) But in practice Cam looks to go down field more... this can open up things underneth and allow a O-Coord to do more to catch the defense off guards because they now have to cover more of the field. While Jimmy is checking down it doesn't give the O-Coord that same flexability.

This is why I believe because of the skill set they brought to the field last year, no play calling was going to help.

Alex Smith couldn't right the ship in San Fran... is it a talent issue? Or is it coaching? Smith is still there. His original coach isn't.

My point... through all these different coaches he is still IMO Garbage. Something tells me it is the QB.

Actually, baring a couple injuries and some piss poor play at QB, and a lame duck coaching... the talent level we had last year was much better than our 2-14 record shows. Why do you think we resigned almost everyone from the core of the team?

Think JR or Hurney felt it was the players not getting it done... or the HC?

I do agree our team was better than the 2-12 record, but I also don't think the overall team was close to that jets level... and I am including injuries (without the injuries it may have been just a tad bit different). While we had Key star players on the team... our overall team was not very good... too many young players thrown into situations they were not ready for.

Again... this proves the point. Fox was happy with Delhomme's above average, but not super-star play. He turned the keys over to him after the Super Bowl run. Delhomme became our defacto Franchise QB.... but wasn't a Franchise quality player. It wasn't until the total breakdown of 2009, that Fox had to part ways, and cried about it. Literally.

When Delhomme had his surgery... they should have started shopping the market. I doubt Fox would have lost his job had we brought in someone to really, truely compete.

I agree with that 100%.... But I think what you are saying is much easier said than done, at requires a lot of balls not only from fox, but the whole front office. Because if we go out and draft a 1st round QB, or spend $$$ on a high value FA QB it sends a sign to the team that we are adding for the future and not building for now. If the fan base feels we are one offensive playmaker, or defensive player away from making a super bowl run... then they draft a qb... the team is gonna be like WTF... fans too... That's why I think very few teams in that situation pull the trigger on something like that.

Same applies to the #1 pick overall.

I agree, but at #1 I believe his is more likely to succed. Just like I expected Sam to be more likely to succed over Jimmy, and Jimmy more likely over Pike.

But how much of the development of Manning was done during Dungy's time?

Who knows? Hypothetical question. No way to answer.

Manning, I could give a different example, but then that would just be a hypothetical...

OKay no way to answer the hypothtical, but you can speculate based on your knowledge of football.

Caldwell has yet to seal the deal with one of the greatest QBs in recent history. If Manning retires without another ring, Caldwell will not be remembered as a great coach. In fact, I don't know anyone who thinks of him that way. In fact, one of the worst games I've see Manning have was the year Caldwell took the reins.

I agree 100%... But I think the ONLY reason he still has a Job is because of Peyton, not his coaching abilities. I mean Payton out coached him in the super bowl and that's not the only time I've seen him out coached... But Mike who didn;t have a QB to carry him is out of the league...

That is why I think a QB plays a huge role in the success of the head coach.

Again hypothetical. I can't answer a question about what factors will play into a scenario that could or could not happen. I will mention again that Smith is still with San Fran... so it can't all be the player here.

Same as above... You can speculate. And I will mention again, I think smith is still in San Fran, and is still garbage. They drafted a young QB, so we'll see how he does, but because he was not a top QB I don't put as much expectation into Colin to be that guy soon :D.

Which... again.. tells me for success in the NFL, talent and good coaching have to go hand in hand.... great coachs can have pooty players, and great players can have pooty coaches, but you won't see great players have great success without them having great coaches too.

Okay... I agree to a point.. I'll put it this way..

During the regular season, and being a consistent winner I believe it has more to do with the QB. A great QB can consistently make the playoffs without a top notch, but a top notch coach is not consistently making the playoffs and being a contender without a top notch QB.

NOW... the playoffs are a different story. That is usually when talented teams are going against talented teams, and great QB's vs other Great QB's... This is when A Great coach comes into play and can be the deciding factor in who wins the superbowl.

So Regular Season - QB More important...

Playoffs - Both are very very important, and coaching more so the deeper you go.