What does Cam have to do

[KJDaniel31]

the only problem I have with that reasoning KJD is that it implies that Cam can't do any differently. There's a decent chance he can. I'll see how the season goes.

I also know he's going to run as a pro either way, but that doesn't mean he'll be running like he did in college.

Every single player before him has. Can you not at least admit that you are holding out hope that he is THE FIRST who will be different?

This is an honest stance: "I believe Cam is so good that he will be the first running QB to succeed in the NFL".

Claiming that running QBs HAVE succeeded in the NFL is simply not accurate in any way.

[antame]

This is impressive failure at simple reading comprehension. Let's try again. If you have kids, perhaps they can help.

Pat White is the ALL TIME leading rusher for QB's in the history of the NCAA. If he doesn't qualify as a "running QB", who does? His career run/pass ratio? (783 Pass to 684 Rush) 1.114 to 1. Cam Newton (292 to 285) is 1.02 to 1.

Tommie Frasier (option QB) ratio is 483-358 (1.34 to 1)

Cam ran a higher % of the time than the all time leading rusher for QBs, and the best option QB I remember watching.

What is a running QB in your opinion?

Jesus, this guy.

[antame]

Every single player before him has. Can you not at least admit that you are holding out hope that he is THE FIRST who will be different?

This is an honest stance: "I believe Cam is so good that he will be the first running QB to succeed in the NFL".

Claiming that running QBs HAVE succeeded in the NFL is simply not accurate in any way.

No.

No.

Yes.

[teeray]

Every single player before him has. Can you not at least admit that you are holding out hope that he is THE FIRST who will be different?

This is an honest stance: "I believe Cam is so good that he will be the first running QB to succeed in the NFL".

Claiming that running QBs HAVE succeeded in the NFL is simply not accurate in any way.

It depends on how you define a "running QB" Can you define it? Because I have a hard time saying a guy with 3,000 yards passing and 30 td passes is a running QB no matter what the ratio is.

Let me ask you this since you want to ask about who has and who has not succeeded in the NFL. How many QBs with 1:1 pass/run ratios have thrown for 3,000 yards, 30 tds and were selected in the top ten in the draft??

Go.

[KJDaniel31]

I can respect your position as stated above. I disagree thoroughly, but you are being honest, so more power to you.

Cam has earned the respect of many by what he has done since the draft, and how he has carried himself since joining the team. I also understand those that feel some of the things he has done in the past are predictors of what he might do in the future.

It just gets me going when I think someone is trying to throw around stats and facts when, in reality, nothing Cam could do in the short term would change their opinion.

We'll just have to wait and see what kind of person he turns out to be in the long run. Personally, I have more confidence in him as a person than I do in him as a pro QB, and I think he will be a terrific pro QB.

Now we are getting somewhere....I also really respect this honesty. You are incorrect, however, that Cam can do nothing to change my opinion. If he develops as a pocket passer, he will be the first to do so from such a background, and I will be extremely happy. I just don't believe the odds of that make any sense.

Name any of the last 15 super bowl winning QBs.....if he starts to throw the ball like any of them, I will eat my crow (it will be a large helping) and take my lumps. Many of them weren't great QB's....but they were pocket passers.

To be clear...I dislike Cam as a person. That is not the reason I believe he will fail in the NFL. His skills are the sole reason for that. His skills + personality are the reasons why I am sickened that he is employed by my team.

[mav1234]

To be direct, I dont believe it is simply a result of play calling. I have not watched a single JC game in my life, so I can't speak intelligently as to the style of play there. I don't think I am crazy for ignoring it here. If this stance of yours was the case, then there would be SOMEONE who played for a different OC or HC in his 4 years which would also show a difference in run/pass ratio. So far I have been unable to find anyone like that. Therefore, what sense does it make to sink to lower levels of football? At Auburn, Cam played with and against many future NFL players. How many did he play against in JC?

Again, in MS I had great passing stats....but I wasnt that good. When I started playing HS defenses...I tucked and ran with much more regularity. I dont think I played against a single future major D1 player either. How far will we go?

It sounds like what you're saying is the amount a player runs/passes is somewhat circumstantial. Aka, it may not be as rigid as "run quarterback" "pass quarterback."

How many players change universities so many times? The very fact that Cam Newton is ... well, that he did it at all is astounding to me. But besides that, that may be why we see such disparity. He also came into Auburn and was kinda just thrown out there and when Auburn realized he could just truck over half the people who played in the SEC they just had him do it.

Every single player before him has. Can you not at least admit that you are holding out hope that he is THE FIRST who will be different?

This is an honest stance: "I believe Cam is so good that he will be the first running QB to succeed in the NFL".

Claiming that running QBs HAVE succeeded in the NFL is simply not accurate in any way.

I don't see a rigid definition of "run" or "pass" quarterback. I see a guy that did what he had to do to win.

If Cam fails to make it in the NFL, it will have nothing to do with him running 260 times or whatever at Auburn, and everything to do with what he does... or doesn't do... at the NFL level.

I understand your reservations but I think the labels are just a bit too confining. The reality is something a bit more complex.

[KJDaniel31]

It depends on how you define a "running QB" Can you define it? Because I have a hard time saying a guy with 3,000 yards passing and 30 td passes is a running QB no matter what the ratio is.

Let me ask you this since you want to ask about who has and who has not succeeded in the NFL. How many QBs with 1:1 pass/run ratios have thrown for 3,000 yards, 30 tds and were selected in the top ten in the draft??

Go.

How, when most teams know better than to draft these guys in the top 10?! My stance all along is that we made a pick that NO ONE ELSE IN HISTORY WAS DUMB ENOUGH TO MAKE. We have a great history in the first round....we have never made a pick this bad in the first round that I am aware of. At least Carruth showed some promise on the field even if he was a psycho.

No QB with a 1:1 ratio has been drafted in the top 10 that I am aware of, but I will do the research. How can the other stats even matter? Why would where he is drafted matter?

Again, you are trying to set yourself up where you can't be wrong. We drafted a QB with a NCAA history that is common for 4th-5th round picks with the #1 pick. I am unaware of another team in history who made a worse selection at #1 save for the Raiders with Russell. Therefore, how can I compare one of the worst picks in history with QBs who no other team is dumb enough to take?

If you want me to compare him to other QB's with those stats (when all QBs like him are wisely taken AT LEAST in the 2nd round) then it makes no sense to limit it to top 10 picks. Doing so is an attempt to claim that he is worth of such a pick....he isn't. He was worthy of where Scott Frost/Brad Smith/Troy Smith/Reggie McNeal went.

[Marguide]

Now we are getting somewhere....I also really respect this honesty. You are incorrect, however, that Cam can do nothing to change my opinion. If he develops as a pocket passer, he will be the first to do so from such a background, and I will be extremely happy. I just don't believe the odds of that make any sense.

Name any of the last 15 super bowl winning QBs.....if he starts to throw the ball like any of them, I will eat my crow (it will be a large helping) and take my lumps. Many of them weren't great QB's....but they were pocket passers.

To be clear...I dislike Cam as a person. That is not the reason I believe he will fail in the NFL. His skills are the sole reason for that. His skills + personality are the reasons why I am sickened that he is employed by my team.

Ok, so how's this for a deal... I will try not to excuse his failings because I admire him as a person, and you will try not to be overly critical of what he does on the field because you are not a big fan of him as a person.

Chances are, he will do less than I would like, and more than you expect, so we will have something to talk about for the rest of the year.

[KJDaniel31]

It sounds like what you're saying is the amount a player runs/passes is somewhat circumstantial. Aka, it may not be as rigid as "run quarterback" "pass quarterback."

No, my argument has always included major college stats/history. I simply dont feel that lower levels of competition show you what a player really is. I also find you to be very intelligent, so I am lost as to why you would stoop to JC stats to try and defend yourself against hundreds of D1 QBs and how they panned out in the NFL. Does it not seem to you to be a bit like hanging on to the bottom rung? Do you really think this one season of JC says anything against all the hundreds of D1 seasons?

How many players change universities so many times? The very fact that Cam Newton is ... well, that he did it at all is astounding to me. But besides that, that may be why we see such disparity. He also came into Auburn and was kinda just thrown out there and when Auburn realized he could just truck over half the people who played in the SEC they just had him do it.

Agreed...what Cam did at Auburn was impressive. He was an amazing college QB. He was dominant, and incredibly exciting to watch.

I don't see a rigid definition of "run" or "pass" quarterback. I see a guy that did what he had to do to win.

If Cam fails to make it in the NFL, it will have nothing to do with him running 260 times or whatever at Auburn, and everything to do with what he does... or doesn't do... at the NFL level.

I understand your reservations but I think the labels are just a bit too confining. The reality is something a bit more complex.

Then I would have to ask...how long would this history of QB's who run this often in college then fail in the NFL continue before we admit that this style of QB doesnt work in the NFL?

Am I that crazy that I think that time has already come?

[teeray]

How, when most teams know better than to draft these guys in the top 10?! My stance all along is that we made a pick that NO ONE ELSE IN HISTORY WAS DUMB ENOUGH TO MAKE. We have a great history in the first round....we have never made a pick this bad in the first round that I am aware of. At least Carruth showed some promise on the field even if he was a psycho.

No QB with a 1:1 ratio has been drafted in the top 10 that I am aware of, but I will do the research. How can the other stats even matter? Why would where he is drafted matter?

Again, you are trying to set yourself up where you can't be wrong. We drafted a QB with a NCAA history that is common for 4th-5th round picks with the #1 pick. I am unaware of another team in history who made a worse selection at #1 save for the Raiders with Russell. Therefore, how can I compare one of the worst picks in history with QBs who no other team is dumb enough to take?

If you want me to compare him to other QB's with those stats (when all QBs like him are wisely taken AT LEAST in the 2nd round) then it makes no sense to limit it to top 10 picks. Doing so is an attempt to claim that he is worth of such a pick....he isn't. He was worthy of where Scott Frost/Brad Smith/Troy Smith/Reggie McNeal went.

Well I guess if I can't be wrong I must be right, right??

Maybe I can simplify how ridiculous your entire argument is. If you want me to go ahead and win this I will so I can go to bed.

Lets just forget about Cam for a moment.

Lets say you are a GM for an NFL football team. It is draft time and you need a QB. You bring a guy in to workout. He comes in and lights up his workout. The ball never hits the turf and the receivers never break stride. RPMs are the highest you have ever recorded. This QB was a 4.0 student in bioengineering.

After this player red shirted his coach was fired and Paul Johnson was hire as the new coach. And although this QB passed for 2,800 yards and 25 tds in the offense he still had a pass/run ratio of 1:1.

This QB has all the measurables. 6'5 230. Huge hands.

Now are you going to tell me that despite all this and the fact he has the best and most accurate arm you have ever evaluated you would come back to you scouts and say "Welp. He has everything you could ever want in a QB. But you know what because that 1:1 ratio I am going to pass and draft Matt Leinart instead"

smh. I am done. If your answer is yes than I can't help you. ratios are irrelevant and every player is different.

[XLR8]

:cam:

[KJDaniel31]

Well I guess if I can't be wrong I must be right, right??

Maybe I can simplify how ridiculous your entire argument is. If you want me to go ahead and win this I will so I can go to bed.

Lets just forget about Cam for a moment.

Lets say you are a GM for an NFL football team. It is draft time and you need a QB. You bring a guy in to workout. He comes in and lights up his workout. The ball never hits the turf and the receivers never break stride. RPMs are the highest you have ever recorded. This QB was a 4.0 student in bioengineering.

After this player red shirted his coach was fired and Paul Johnson was hire as the new coach. And although this QB passed for 2,800 yards and 25 tds in the offense he still had a pass/run ratio of 1:1.

This QB has all the measurables. 6'5 230. Huge hands.

Now are you going to tell me that despite all this and the fact he has the best and most accurate arm you have ever evaluated you would come back to you scouts and say "Welp. He has everything you could ever want in a QB. But you know what because that 1:1 ratio I am going to pass and draft Matt Leinart instead"

smh. I am done. If your answer is yes than I can't help you. ratios are irrelevant and every player is different.

My answer is no.

When has such a player ever existed....or do you really have to invent a unicorn to "win" the argument? Has any player with near a 1:1 ratio been decent at throwing the football?

Why am I still asking you for evidence of this player? Is it really that you dont want to look that up?

Lets recap....I ask you for easily attainable stats....any SB QB who had near a 1:1 ratio (even near!). How many TOTAL SB QBs are there? Should be easy to research.

You want me to find you a player with a 1:1 who was also drafted in the top 10...something that no NFL GM in his right mind would do, or has ever done.

The answer to both is ZERO, only you cant make yourself admit it. This is because:

Question 1 (answer zero) proves my point....QBs with these skills and this history do not win titles.

Question 2 (answer zero) does nothing.....as being a top 10 pick has very little to say about future SB titles. In the last 15 years, only 4 of the 11 QBs were top 10 picks. To be thorough, Big Ben was 11th overall, but one of the 4 was Trent Dilfer! Almost as many were drafted 6th round or later (3) than were top 10 (4); 7 total SB wins for all 1st round picks, 5 for 6th round or later.

You are arguing a stat which foretells success less that 40 % of the time....I am arguing a stat which proves failure 100%!

[mav1234]

No, my argument has always included major college stats/history. I simply dont feel that lower levels of competition show you what a player really is. I also find you to be very intelligent, so I am lost as to why you would stoop to JC stats to try and defend yourself against hundreds of D1 QBs and how they panned out in the NFL. Does it not seem to you to be a bit like hanging on to the bottom rung? Do you really think this one season of JC says anything against all the hundreds of D1 seasons?

Agreed...what Cam did at Auburn was impressive. He was an amazing college QB. He was dominant, and incredibly exciting to watch.

Then I would have to ask...how long would this history of QB's who run this often in college then fail in the NFL continue before we admit that this style of QB doesnt work in the NFL?

Am I that crazy that I think that time has already come?

I'd never use JC stats for anything except to point out that a run/pass breakdown isn't really indicative of a player's skill set, but more a consequence of the situation he is in. All I was trying to demonstrate here is that a player changes based on the situation they are in. Certainly his athleticism is part of what he brings to the game. At Auburn, that translated to a major part of the offense, but that doesn't mean it would have to elsewhere.

Are you telling me that you really think that if you put Jake Locker at Auburn, he wouldn't have had a different run/pass breakdown? Locker is also quite athletic and he would have been fun to watch there, too. Not like Cam, but...

Since I doubt the Panthers plan to run him 20 times a game, they either thought he could be molded into a pass first QB or that he already was one. Ultimately Cam was drafted not for what he did in college, but for what he could do in the NFL. IMO, it's the hope of Cam continuing to work hard to get better at his trade that drove the Panthers to draft him. It's not just that he is a physical freak - the last two schools he has been with have been very positive about his work ethic and his drive to improve himself.

My thing is I prefer to look at each situation individually. At this point, I have reservations about him, but I hope he'll turn out alright because he is a Panther... and I think any attempt at predicting his success rate based on past success of guys like Ben or failures of guys like Pat White is just too simple.

[teeray]

My answer is no.

History says that a QB with a 1:1 ratio can never succeed right? I mean that has been your argument. If your answer is no then it craters you entire position.

So I guess by answering no you would also agree that every QB needs to be evaluated on his own merits and skill set not a pass/run ratio, correct?

So therefore you also admit that you can not say that Cam Newton is going to be a bust because of a run/pass ratio, correct?

You don't have to answer those questions bc you already have by saying no to the previous question.

It doesn't matter if he has ever existed because the hypothetical goes to the core of your 1:1 argument and whether is even matters.

Thanks for playing ;)