What does Cam have to do

[CRA]

Not near the passer Russell was.

Who?

[TheRealDeal]

Either, all.

[CRA]

Either, all.

so just doing your typical trolling then......

carry on. Russell had a strong arm....that was about it.

[TheRealDeal]

:lol:

That's the extent of another QBs skills that I know as a passer...

[blackcatgrowl]

Except pass/run ratio. That is a stone cold lock :rolleyes:

Not to mention that "evaluating" is completely subjective and unprovable too. The perfect troll bread.

[Mr ocho nueve]

:lol: Vince Young is a bust, sorry guys, but it's true. He isn't a successful QB.

[CRA]

:lol:

That's the extent of another QBs skills that I know as a passer...

point remains you just make junk up. Now you are pimpin Russell as a noteworthy better passer.......that is just funny.

[Cat'sGrowl]

Russell didn't have anywhere near the intelligence or work ethic Cam did either..

When are you guys going to accept that TRD is just trolling because he is still butt hurt about Moore and let these threads die? 46 pages? Seriously? He's biased. He's irritiated. He's trolling. Leave him be and these pointless arguments will fade into the distance and you will save yourself a lot of trouble

Quit feeding the angry troll.

[CRA]

Russell didn't have anywhere near the intelligence or work ethic Cam did either..

When are you guys going to accept that TRD is just trolling because he is still butt hurt about Moore and let these threads die? 46 pages? Seriously? He's biased. He's irritiated. He's trolling. Leave him be and these pointless arguments will fade into the distance and you will save yourself a lot of trouble

Let it go.

or leadership or athletic ability......

[KJDaniel31]

:lol: I don't know you tell me. Oh wait you already did

:lol: :lol: :lol: :rofl:

Here we go again....Where in that did I say that no QB with those rushing stats has ever been decent? I asked for the "the most successful QB who ran for even half of that on average in college?" Again this is an honesty issue....you fully understood my statement, but for some reason chose not to respond as such. This time you even went back and found the quote, and it says nothing close to what you claim. It's either this, or you really dont understand the difference between "No QB with half the rushing yards of Cam has ever succeeded" and "Who is the most successful QB with half the rushing yards Cam had"? One is a definitive statement, the other a question (after pulling teeth) in an attempt to get you to actually bring some facts to the discussion.

It would be a huge surprise to me if reading comprehension was the problem, as I know you understood just fine. Now, if we can just get the honesty to that level, we might have a decent discussion.

Let me try to say this in a different way since you don't seem to understand what I am saying.

You keep trying to define Cam Newton by his college stats and how they compare to other college QBs and their college stats and how those QBs fared in the NFL. I do think that is a good reference point.

However, here is the issue I have. You can sit there and write walls of text about how this guy has similar stats to all these other guys and therefore that somehow translates to the NFL.

I on the other hand judge each QB on his unique skill set and only use stats as a reference point, not an indicator of pass or fail in the NFL because that would be foolish.

For Vince Young or The Golden Calf of Bristol there are really, really big differences in those guys and Cam Newton.

Vince Young. Smaller size (not height but sheer size), mental issues, throws side arm, weaker arm

The Golden Calf of Bristol- Slower, long delivery, lacks arm strength

For every guy you roll out there that is statistically similar I can point to something that shows a glaring differences between that person and Cam Newton that show why Cam is a different prospect than those guys. I am not saying that he is going to be the GOAT. Or even better than some of those guys in the end (although it is my belief that he will). But there are huge differences in skill set between Vince Young, The Golden Calf of Bristol, and Cam Newton.

If you only judge people on certain stats then you are severely missing the point.

You can use stats to say "He is just like these other guys"

And then I would respond with physical attributes and say "He is nothing like those other guys."

And that is where we are I think. I am looking at his physical abilities and forming and opinion of Cam and you are looking at stats and forming your opinion.

Here is where you are just a bit off: I am not saying that if one threw for a higher % that this = success. This stat merely seems to EXCLUDE prospects, not ensure their success. I bet Ryan Leaf/David Carr's % was near 10:1....it just means they are not excluded by this stat. It isn't near as simple as you are making out, as this is one step in eliminating guys who have a good chance to be successful.

One quote I found interesting (I believe it is from Bill Polian) who said "I dont want a 5ft 5in CB, I dont care how good he is". He's a smart man, and no where in that statement can the opposite be inferred, that anyone over 5 ft 5 is destined to be an NFL CB.

Listen, you are smart, and I really hope that we can get the discussion back on track and accurately discuss each others' points.

[KJDaniel31]

One last thing KJ. In order for your hypothesis of pass ratio is equivalent to how developed a passer is wouldn't the same have to be true in reciprocal??

In other words would someone who has a pass/run ratio of 8:1 be a better developed passer than someone with a 4:1 pass/run ratio?

Would it be your argument that Graham Harrell is a better developed passer than Andrew Luck??

No, because the numbers/history dont back that up. I have never claimed nor implied that having OVER a certain run/pass % can predict NFL success. It also does not claim/imply that having over a certain run/pass % means that one has any of the physical abilities necessary to be a NFL QB, nor does it claim/imply that having a higher run/pass % ensures that one specific QB will be more successful than one with a lower run/pass % (I'm certain VY has been a MORE successful NFL QB than Timmy Chang. Simply getting alot of reps throwing the ball cannot make up for a gross lack of size or arm strength. My stance has been that history proves that having UNDER a certain run/pass% can predict FAILURE with 100% certainty. The debate is why this stats seems to predict this outcome with, so far, perfect accuracy.

I mean obviously the reason he passed more in college is because he is a better developed passer right?? How come Graham Harrell wasn't drafted despite his huge passing stats and his great pass/run ratio??

The truth is a pass/run ratio generally is a reflection of the style of offense in which you play in and not a reflection of the skill set in which you possess.

It simply doesn't work.

If your argument is that he didn't pass the ball enough to properly develop as a passer the more significant stats would be attempts per game and not pass/run ratio IMO

Great point, here is why I disagree: The numbers and history dont back up that stance, which is why I have never argued it. Simply throwing alot does not seem to have any correlation to NFL success. In my opinion, this tends to be due to the fact that MOST of the NCAA QBs who lead the country in pass attempts come from very weak competition levels, and tend to be weak armed (which is why they are playing at Hawaii/Houston/SMU and not Auburn/Texas/USC). It just seems that having alot of pass attempts has little to say about NFL success, while a high run/pass % has a perfect record in predicting NFL failure/career mediocrity.

[KJDaniel31]

Yeah because its always a good sign when a quarterback is drafted that high but cut before his contract runs out. And how many of those wins were against winning teams?? And why didn't he get a starting job somewhere?

Grits is on to something. If you look at all the evidence, it is obvious that Vince had little to do with that team's good record. It is, in the end, a team sport. When he was hurt, that team had its best season, much less drama, and everyone (including the Titans) realized that Vince was not an asset. NFL teams don't cut top 5 draft picks if they are an asset in any way. If you are a top 5 pick, get plenty of playing time to develop, and still your team cuts you because they are better off without you, how can you not be a bust?

The fact that none of the QB desperate teams wanted him to start for them is the icing on the cake. NFL teams are desperate to WIN....if anyone thought Vince helped them win, he would be starting.

[KJDaniel31]

Except pass/run ratio. That is a stone cold lock :rolleyes:

Yup.....decades upon decades, thousands of QBs, and 100% accurate so far!