Some constructive criticism on Cam Newton's performance. Please don't shoot.

[frash.exe]

guys here's another diagram of the last play to illustrate my point

as you can see smith is not pictured but he's taking a piss on the field somewhere, olsen is working over the middle in the endzone, naanee is running a short drag route, lafell is running the squiggly line squiggly line route, and goodson is running the doug funnie route. what I think is that cam should have looked to see lafell open on the left side because the route goodson's running takes a long time to develop, and at that point he had only outlined the right side of his face. by the time he starts running the nose line the fans will have left the stadium. this is only my 18,000th post of "some" constructive criticism. typically when i write constructive criticism on a player i make 65,700 posts.

now you make a different opinion and i'll jump on it

[PantherFanForLife]

Seriously? Ok what was her name? I swear I had no idea she was your woman man.

I can't believe you actually went through all that trouble to prove.....

[Guild]

After rewatching that play a second time I think that Goodson was not only the best option but that no one else had a realistic chance of getting the first down or touchdown.

[PantherFanForLife]

Funny I get that same feeling.

Like this:

But I've stated over and over again that I do not agree with you that Goodson was the pre-snap decision.

Cam doesn't have to sell or fake anything because he's not burning time he's going through his progression.

Again Cam is only 'staring' Goodson down in your head because you believe Cam is simply 'burning' time waiting for Goodson to get open.

Fine don't agree with me. Do you agree with the offensive coordinator?

Rivera said Arizona's defense dictated some of quarterback Cam Newton's targets in the final plays as the Cardinals played man coverage, zone coverage and used a zero blitz package (no extra help on any receiver).

"I think we had our shots with those five (plays)," Chudzinski said.

On none of the plays did Newton attempt to get the ball to receiver Steve Smith, who had eight receptions for 178 yards and two touchdowns. Smith might have been a first option on some of the plays but wasn't open because of Arizona's defensive strategy. On the final play, Goodson was the first option.

Read more: http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/09/12/1484051/panthers-coaches-ok-with-plays.html#ixzz1Xzl5FVzO

I'm sorry but you are wrong.

Hello? When did I say Goodson was wide open?

I said Goodson could have been wide open if he stemmed 1 step towards the flat.

At first I just thought you didn't know what stemmed meant.

No I am certain.

But just for the sake of argument do you know what it means to stem a route?

Do you know what a Texas route is?

Or this:

And what I keep repeating is the reality. He wasn't open. I'm actually talking about what happened. I also don't believe there is any way Goodson would have ever been "wide open" at any point during that play.

There was only one receiver wide open in that video at any point during that play: Naanee. That is not an opinion. That is a fact. You're speaking assumptions here.

BS.

YOU think Cam is looking at Goodson.

But all you see is Cam's helmet facing that direction you don't see where Cam's eyes are.

And ALL of Cam's options are start on the right side of the field, which is where Cam is looking.

THAT IS HOW A HI-LO PROGRESSION WORKS.

He doesn't need to look left for Naanee because Naanee starts his route from the RIGHT.

And you are doing the same thing. You're making assumptions on this one just like I am.

I at least have viable reasons to state what I'm stating.....not only did he consistently look in Goodson's direction but if he did do what you say, he probably would have seen the other open targets. Unless what you are insinuating is that he did see them and then decided to pass on them and wait on Goodson?

If that's the case, then he certainly did make a bad decision. You don't pass on an open target that is in a position to get you what you need now, in order to go to your intended target that might get open later. Especially on 4th and Goal.

It doesn't even matter because we have it confirmed, that Goodson was indeed the pre-snap, number one option. You also don't seem to get that I believe the reason Cam needed to look left, is to either throw to Naanee, once he noticed he was open and lost his man, or at the very least disguise his throw to Goodson, his intended target, and mislead his defender.

In the end, the point you continue to miss here, isn't so much that I think he was looking at Goodson. It's that Lennon, the defender, also thought he was looking at Goodson and went straight for him to take him down. He was right.

LoL, because I don't agree I don't understand.

25, 31 and Peterson would close on Naanee as soon as Cam throws it to him, you can bank on that; its a certainty.

That's all there waiting to do is close on whomever gets the ball.

Because that's what they're waiting for.

You think all three DBs are gonna stand there and watch Naanee?

You fail to account for Peterson-31 and 25 on the chase.

So that make 2 DBs ahead of him and 1 behind him.

You seem to think the more you explain it will somehow change anything.

I understand full well what's happening on that play and if you don't think those DB would make a play to stop Naanee then I not gonna try to convince you. But, unlike you I'm not gonna assume that you're wrong because you disagree. That's not how reasonable men discuss/grade a play.

I can see it's not going to change anything, because you refuse to hear logic on this one. I accounted for both guys, repeatedly on more than one occasion. I was actually going to explain myself again, but I'm just sick of this particular argument since you're just going give your personal prediction. I'll just give mine too.

He wouldn't have closed on him. Naanee would have gotten the first down before either defender takes him down. You can bank on it. It's a certainty.

[teeray]

These "facts" are only fact in your head. Only about 10% of what you have said has even been correct.

There are guys on here that have played the QB position that have told you that you are wrong.

Why keep fighting everyone? It is clear form your posts you have never played the position or studied QB play, yet you are determined to argue your point.

[Guild]

These aren't facts.

My eyes tell me the facts say you are mistaken.

[PantherFanForLife]

These "facts" are only fact in your head. Only about 10% of what you have said has even been correct.

There are guys on here that have played the QB position that have told you that you are wrong.

Why keep fighting everyone? It is clear form your posts you have never played the position or studied QB play, yet you are determined to argue your point.

No facts are just facts, backed up by reality. Chud, our OC, and Rivera, our head coach, stated Goodson was the first option. Naanee was a wide open receiver. Goodson was not wide open. Olson also got open. Cam threw it to Goodson, who was short, and already wrapped up. There were 2 other guys in a better position to catch the ball for a TD or 1st down.

If you prefer to hear it from the horse's mouth you can watch the press conference too. minute 5:26.

http://www.panthers.com/media-vault/videos/Cam-Newton-Interview/4ec7872c-4c5e-4513-9e4e-fa0bf85eb7e9#?id=82f86d14-c23a-4632-a7e6-f00375cfa32a&channelName=Recent

I have to play QB to be able to tell if I there's a wide open receiver on the field or not or if a QB is moving his head? With that logic, then we should just stop watching football cause we can't understand what's going on. So forgive me, but it doesn't actually mean anything to me that the "experts" in this thread have played QB. If the coach Ron Rivera, states it, I think I'll just take his word for it.

And just so you know there's offensive and defensive coordinators right now in the NFL that have never played QB and there's been some that actually never played football at all. In fact you should Google Todd Haley, he's actually a head coach, for Kansas City chiefs. He never played football either. And that, too, is a fact.

You know what else is a fact? This place is filled with overzealous fans that no matter how many facts you show them, to what great lengths to go to explain something, no matter the evidence presented, they would just never accept that Cam Newton could do something wrong.

That, too, is a fact.

[teeray]

No facts are just facts, backed up by reality. Chud, our OC stated Goodson was the first option. Naanee was a wide open receiver. Goodson was not wide open. Cam threw it to Goodson, who was short, and already wrapped up. There were 3 other guys in a better position to catch the ball for a TD or 1st down.

I have to play QB to be able to tell if I there's a wide open receiver on the field or not or if a QB is moving his head? With that logic, then we should just stop watching football cause we can't understand what's going on.

And just so you know there's offensive and defensive coordinators right now in the NFL that have never played QB and there's been some that actually never played football at all. In fact you should Google Todd Haley, he's actually a head coach, for Kansas City chiefs. He never played football either. And that, too, is a fact.

You know what else is a fact? This place is filled with overzealous fans that no matter how many facts you show them, to what great lengths to go to explain something, no matter the evidence presented, they would just never accept that Cam Newton could do something wrong.

That, too, is a fact.

I also have now gone through about 3-4 other games now and I have seen similar play designs by teams across the NFL. In every play when someone cleared out the coverage and ended up with a RB on LB the ball went to RB. Some of these guys are big time QBs that made the same read, and the same throw. Sometimes the drag guy appeared to be a little more open like in the Panthers game yet the ball still went to the RB. Because it is about the match up and the progression more than who is the most open.

What you don't understand still is that you don't go through progressions and then decide who is the most open then throw the ball. You still haven't grasped that after all of your posts.

My point about the fact you have never played QB or studied the position isn't that you aren't smart enough. Not at all, so don't take that as a slight against you. The point is you don't seem to understand the mechanics of how the QB position works fundamentally. These things that several posters have told you are indeed facts of how the QB position is played. That isn't an attack on your intelligence or general football knowledge. It is just the truth.

[PantherFanForLife]

I also have now gone through about 3-4 other games now and I have seen similar play designs by teams across the NFL. In every play when someone cleared out the coverage and ended up with a RB on LB the ball went to RB. Some of these guys are big time QBs that made the same read, and the same throw. Sometimes the drag guy appeared to be a little more open like in the Panthers game yet the ball still went to the RB. Because it is about the match up and the progression more than who is the most open.

What you don't understand still is that you don't go through progressions and then decide who is the most open then throw the ball. You still haven't grasped that after all of your posts.

My point about the fact you have never played QB or studied the position isn't that you aren't smart enough. Not at all, so don't take that as a slight against you. The point is you don't seem to understand the mechanics of how the QB position works fundamentally. These things that several posters have told you are indeed facts of how the QB position is played. That isn't an attack on your intelligence or general football knowledge. It is just the truth.

I'm not an expert but I do understand how QB progressions work and QB mechanics. What the other guy was telling me was one of the many possible variations of a QB progression. He made a personal assumption as what he believed Cam's progression was. He was also basing his assumption on believing Goodson was NOT the pre-snap option. He was wrong. Goodson was the pre-snap option. If he didn't like my evidence of it, then Ron Rivera, our coach, says so.

And what you fail to realize is that on that play, our guy Naanee, didn't" clear out the coverage". It was man to man the entire time with the exception of Naanee.

The only thing he managed to clear out, was his own defender, right when he made his cut and sent him into the endzone. And in man to man, when one or more of your receivers, beats or loses his man, they now become the number one options, or the best option to throw the ball to.....regardless of who the pre-snap number one choice is.

This happens all the freaking time. In man to man, you take the guy that beats his man. This is not rocket science. That's just common sense. And on that play, that was not Goodson. You don't pass on an open guy, in order to have a favorable match-up. An open receiver that beats his man, is a better choice than, a LB vs a RB match-up. Every time. This is what you want as a QB.

The play may have been intended, and designed for that guy to be Goodson, or for Goodson to have the best match-up, but it didn't end up that way. And it's the QB's responsibility to take note of that and capitalize on the opportunities. Cam simply chose to stick with his number one option, from the beginning to the end, despite the fact the play didn't actually go as designed.

[Marguide]

Wow, this thread won't die. Talk about over-analyzing.

I watched the play again full speed, and Naanee would have gone nowhere with the ball. What else is there to discuss?

[panthers55]

I also have now gone through about 3-4 other games now and I have seen similar play designs by teams across the NFL. In every play when someone cleared out the coverage and ended up with a RB on LB the ball went to RB. Some of these guys are big time QBs that made the same read, and the same throw. Sometimes the drag guy appeared to be a little more open like in the Panthers game yet the ball still went to the RB. Because it is about the match up and the progression more than who is the most open.

What you don't understand still is that you don't go through progressions and then decide who is the most open then throw the ball. You still haven't grasped that after all of your posts.

My point about the fact you have never played QB or studied the position isn't that you aren't smart enough. Not at all, so don't take that as a slight against you. The point is you don't seem to understand the mechanics of how the QB position works fundamentally. These things that several posters have told you are indeed facts of how the QB position is played. That isn't an attack on your intelligence or general football knowledge. It is just the truth.

The thing is, all the Panthers knew the ball was going to Goodson. Maybe it is me but when Nannee is running across the middle it doesn't even look like he is looking back at Cam until he crosses the path of the ref. I am using the ponytail as a reference but it looks like he is looking where he is running and then starts to look back about the time Cam is delivering the ball to Goodson. If Newton hit him early when he was open it would have bounced off as Nannee wasn't looking then. He knew where the ball was going and that he was a decoy. He starting looking late because if it didn't go to Goodson, he was a target after Goodson not before. Just my uneducated opinion.

Maybe I will check in after another 50 posts to stir the pot again.:D

[teeray]

I'm not an expert but I do understand how QB progressions work and QB mechanics. What the other guy was telling me was one of the many possible variations of a QB progression. He made a personal assumption as what he believed Cam's progression was. He was also basing his assumption on believing Goodson was NOT the pre-snap option. He was wrong. Goodson was the pre-snap option. If he didn't like my evidence of it, then Ron Rivera, our coach, says so.

And what you fail to realize is that on that play, our guy Naanee, didn't" clear out the coverage". It was man to man the entire time with the exception of Naanee.

The only thing he managed to clear out, was his own defender, right when he made his cut and sent him into the endzone. And in man to man, when one or more of your receivers, beats or loses his man, they now become the number one options, or the best option to throw the ball to.....regardless of who the pre-snap number one choice is.

This happens all the freaking time. In man to man, you take the guy that beats his man. This is not rocket science. That's just common sense. And on that play, that was not Goodson.

The play may have been intended, and designed for that guy to be Goodson, but it didn't end up that way. And it's the QB's responsibility to take note of that and capitalize on the opportunities. Cam simply chose to stick with his number one option, from the beginning to the end, despite the fact the play didn't actually go as designed.

If I am wrong than every QB that I have watched on a similar play design is also wrong. That is all I can say. Apparently you have a better grasp on these things than other NFL QBs including Tom Brady and people who have played the position.

You need to get into coaching so you can revolutionize the game.

For the record Naanee isn't as open as you think and still has a long way to get to the end zone or first down marker. Even if Cam did see him he had the right match up with Goodsen that gave us the best chance to get the first down and the touchdown.

The other thing you don't grasp is your pre and post snap reads have as much to do with match ups than who is open after the snap. Why?? Because in the NFL if you wait until someone is open you are going to fail 9/10 times.

So you are wrong on both counts.

The last thing I will say is the thing you should remember. We may agree to disagree. But after 3 days of this bullpoo, with the slow motion and still frames, we still can't agree on what he should have done.

The crazy thing is that Cam Newton has less than 2 seconds at full speed to make the same decision.

[PantherFanForLife]

The thing is, all the Panthers knew the ball was going to Goodson. Maybe it is me but when Nannee is running across the middle it doesn't even look like he is looking back at Cam until he crosses the path of the ref. I am using the ponytail as a reference but it looks like he is looking where he is running and then starts to look back about the time Cam is delivering the ball to Goodson. If Newton hit him early when he was open it would have bounced off as Nannee wasn't looking then. He knew where the ball was going and that he was a decoy. He starting looking late because if it didn't go to Goodson, he was a target after Goodson not before. Just my uneducated opinion.

Maybe I will check in after another 50 posts to stir the pot again.:D

So did Arizona D's. And you are are right, and it's what I am saying. Naanee was not the first option, pre-snap. I agree. That's already been established. But he became a better option, along with Olson because the play did not go as designed.

It's easy to understand and, yes, I get it, why Goodson would have been that guy if the play went as designed. But it didn't.

If Naanee would have pulled his defender, and Lennon across the field with him, then Goodson would have had the right side of the field open to get the first down.

But Naanee's defender did not follow him across. Lennon, then, also did not bite on Naanee, because he could see where Cam was looking. He saw that Cam was not going to throw to Naanee, and was easily able to determine who was the only intended receiver left in that direction: Goodson. That's why he was there with his arms wrapped around Goodson before the ball got to him. That's why Lennon never lost sight of the intended receiver from the moment the ball was snapped.

That's why the play didn't go as designed.

Had Cam at least pump faked or looked towards Naanee, he could have sold Lennon on going after Naanee, leaving Goodson in that open position. That's what did not happen though. That was the mistake. He could have also chose to throw to Naanee, when he saw Naanee lost his initial defender, and whether or not that ball bounces off of him, who knows.

[PantherFanForLife]

If I am wrong than every QB that I have watched on a similar play design is also wrong. That is all I can say. Apparently you have a better grasp on these things than other NFL QBs including Tom Brady and people who have played the position.

You need to get into coaching so you can revolutionize the game.

For the record Naanee isn't as open as you think and still has a long way to get to the end zone or first down marker. Even if Cam did see him he had the right match up with Goodsen that gave us the best chance to get the first down and the touchdown.

The other thing you don't grasp is your pre and post snap reads have as much to do with match ups than who is open after the snap. Why?? Because in the NFL if you wait until someone is open you are going to fail 9/10 times.

So you are wrong on both counts.

The last thing I will say is the thing you should remember. We may agree to disagree. But after 3 days of this bullpoo, with the slow motion and still frames, we still can't agree on what he should have done.

The crazy thing is that Cam Newton has less than 2 seconds at full speed to make the same decision.

You do realize you just argued my point, right? I agree. Cam shouldn't have waited. He shouldn't have stared him down. That was one of the 9 times. And he'll fail the other 8 times if he continues to do that.