Some constructive criticism on Cam Newton's performance. Please don't shoot.

[panthers55]

I'm not an expert but I do understand how QB progressions work and QB mechanics. What the other guy was telling me was one of the many possible variations of a QB progression. He made a personal assumption as what he believed Cam's progression was. He was also basing his assumption on believing Goodson was NOT the pre-snap option. He was wrong. Goodson was the pre-snap option. If he didn't like my evidence of it, then Ron Rivera, our coach, says so.

And what you fail to realize is that on that play, our guy Naanee, didn't" clear out the coverage". It was man to man the entire time with the exception of Naanee.

The only thing he managed to clear out, was his own defender, right when he made his cut and sent him into the endzone. And in man to man, when one or more of your receivers, beats or loses his man, they now become the number one options, or the best option to throw the ball to.....regardless of who the pre-snap number one choice is.

This happens all the freaking time. In man to man, you take the guy that beats his man. This is not rocket science. That's just common sense. And on that play, that was not Goodson. You don't pass on an open guy, in order to have a favorable match-up. An open receiver that beats his man, is a better choice than, a LB vs a RB match-up. Every time. This is what you want as a QB.

The play may have been intended, and designed for that guy to be Goodson, or for Goodson to have the best match-up, but it didn't end up that way. And it's the QB's responsibility to take note of that and capitalize on the opportunities. Cam simply chose to stick with his number one option, from the beginning to the end, despite the fact the play didn't actually go as designed.

I was the one who told you that Goodson was the presnap read, it was easy to see that. What you still fail to see is that Nannee was not going to get the ball no matter what unless it was late. In fact it doesn't even look like he is looking at Cam until after he clears the referee. He is a target if Goodson is tied up so he couldn't get the ball until after Goodson is in position which is well after Nannee is open in your estimate.

As for the man to man description you noted, true man to man entails that you stick with your man until the ball is thrown or you see someone running with it and then you collapse to the ball. When a player is playing zone he is matched up man to man while the offensive guy is in his zone. He then passes them off to other guys as the receiver goes through his zone into another. What they are playing looks like a combination of zone and man. Number 51 starts out on Olsen and then sees Goodson coming inside, he leaves Olsen and hands him off while he engages Goodson because he knows that there is not anyone in that zone after Nannee clears it out. Man to man or cover 0 that close to the goal would entail defenders all taking guys off the line and that didn't happen. Most times you get a combination where the safeties and linebackers play zone but the corners play man to cover the fade route. I think that linebacker was playing zone but it is hard to tell sometimes when things get so compressed and they are not taking drops.

[panthers55]

Just clarifying but I am not going to debate it unless somehow it goes another 50 posts at which time I will add my 2 cents.

[teeray]

You do realize you just argued my point, right? I agree. Cam shouldn't have waited. He shouldn't have stared him down. That was one of the 9 times. And he'll fail the other 8 times if he continues to do that.

Actually you are just not comprehending my point. But that is cool.

Chudzinski also implied that Cam made the right decision. Maybe you should call him and tell him he is wrong.

[Tarheels23]

You do realize you just argued my point, right? I agree. Cam shouldn't have waited. He shouldn't have stared him down. That was one of the 9 times. And he'll fail the other 8 times if he continues to do that.

What exactly are you trying to prove any way?

Let me guess, Cam's not ready and Clausen should start, or is it, DA gives us the best chance to win?

[PantherFanForLife]

I was the one who told you that Goodson was the presnap read, it was easy to see that. What you still fail to see is that Nannee was not going to get the ball no matter what unless it was late. In fact it doesn't even look like he is looking at Cam until after he clears the referee. He is a target if Goodson is tied up so he couldn't get the ball until after Goodson is in position which is well after Nannee is open in your estimate.

As for the man to man description you noted, true man to man entails that you stick with your man until the ball is thrown or you see someone running with it and then you collapse to the ball. When a player is playing zone he is matched up man to man while the offensive guy is in his zone. He then passes them off to other guys as the receiver goes through his zone into another. What they are playing looks like a combination of zone and man. Number 51 starts out on Olsen and then sees Goodson coming inside, he leaves Olsen and hands him off while he engages Goodson because he knows that there is not anyone in that zone after Nannee clears it out. Man to man or cover 0 that close to the goal would entail defenders all taking guys off the line and that didn't happen. Most times you get a combination where the safeties and linebackers play zone but the corners play man to cover the fade route. I think that linebacker was playing zone but it is hard to tell sometimes when things get so compressed and they are not taking drops.

I'm going to break it down for you, frame by frame. You can do the same with the video.

1. Naanee breaks off and gets open. Looking straight ahead.

2.Naanee turns his head and IS looking at Cam BEFORE Cam even winds up to throw . Goodson is not looking at Cam at this point. He's still trying to get in position.

3.Naanee IS STILL looking at Cam . Now, Goodson is in position and looking at Cam too.

4.Naanee IS STILL looking at Cam, as is Goodson.

5.From the other angle. Naanee IS looking at Cam way BEFORE he gets to the referee. Ball should have been thrown by now if Newton was gonna go for Naanee.

Naanee does get open first, he does look at Cam first, before Goodson. And yes, I get it. You WANT me to be wrong.

[PantherFanForLife]

What exactly are you trying to prove any way?

Let me guess, Cam's not ready and Clausen should start, or is it, DA gives us the best chance to win?

Clausen? HA! Funny. If you knew me better you would never say that. No, I'm saying Cam's still a rookie, and he still has things to learn. One of the things being is how to capitalize on opportunities of a play in progress. As a rookie he stuck to the design. With more experience, he would have probably hit one of the other guys on that play.

And for the record, I'm as excited about Cam as anyone else(I want him to win us the Superbowl, this year;)), I'm just pointing out some things he needs to work on as the season progresses and I've never understood the mentality of the fans that if you criticize a player you like, it must mean you don't like him or are against him or want someone else. I could care less about either of those two other guys and don't believe they're anywhere near on the same level as Cam. They need to sit on the bench where they belong.

[Tarheels23]

I hate the saying "Rookie Mistake". Let's just say for a second, that you're right. No one's perfect, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady included. How would you break down the INT Tom Brady threw? Was it his fault? And if so, would you categorize it as a rookie mistake as well?

The point I'm trying to make is that, no one's perfect, and mistakes are going to be made by rookies and veterans alike.

It's time to move on dude!

[Guild]

Do you not see #25 (Rhodes?) in those pics. Naanee isn't getting any further than Goodson even if he had been thrown the ball.

[PantherFanForLife]

I hate the saying "Rookie Mistake". Let's just say for a second, that you're right. No one's perfect, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady included. How would you break down the INT Tom Brady threw? Was it his fault? And if so, would you categorize it as a rookie mistake as well?

The point I'm trying to make is that, no one's perfect, and mistakes are going to be made by rookies and veterans alike.

It's time to move on dude!

I honestly didn't take the time to analyze it, or even had a good look at it, but I have heard the phrase used even on vets too.

And I will, but it usually takes until Sunday morning;)

[panthers55]

So did Arizona D's. And you are are right, and it's what I am saying. Naanee was not the first option, pre-snap. I agree. That's already been established. But he became a better option, along with Olson because the play did not go as designed.

It's easy to understand and, yes, I get it, why Goodson would have been that guy if the play went as designed. But it didn't.

If Naanee would have pulled his defender, and Lennon across the field with him, then Goodson would have had the right side of the field open to get the first down.

But Naanee's defender did not follow him across. Lennon, then, also did not bite on Naanee, because he could see where Cam was looking. He saw that Cam was not going to throw to Naanee, and was easily able to determine who was the only intended receiver left in that direction: Goodson. That's why he was there with his arms wrapped around Goodson before the ball got to him. That's why Lennon never lost sight of the intended receiver from the moment the ball was snapped.

That's why the play didn't go as designed.

Had Cam at least pump faked or looked towards Naanee, he could have sold Lennon on going after Naanee, leaving Goodson in that open position. That's what did not happen though. That was the mistake. He could have also chose to throw to Naanee, when he saw Naanee lost his initial defender, and whether or not that ball bounces off of him, who knows.

The problem here is that you don't have a basic understanding of what is going on and who is covering who. Not trying to sound better than thou or anything but your points are fundamentally flawed like Teeray said. You keep arguing using logic that isn't the way things are set up.

First off Nannee and Olsen weren't options early unless there was a blown coverage and there wasn't. The play was designed so Olsen who got the ball on the play before and for Nannee to clear the zone for Goodson, not be primary or even secondary receivers. So your premise that Nannee and Olsen were better options is incorrect. They were not early options but late options if Goodson wasn't open which he was.

Lennon didn't bite on Nannee because that wasn't his responsibility. He was matched up with Olsen short. When he saw Goodson come into his zone and saw Nannee took the coverage into the middle, he sluffed off of Olsen and handed him off and took Goodson who came into his zone. Nannee was not his man to cover so by covering Goodson but not Nannee, it didn't make Nannee a better target at all. Guys were already coming into Nannee's area to cover him. And frankly Nannee wasn't even watching Cam early. So no Lennon was not on Goodson the whole time but changed from Olsen to Goodson as Goodson came into his zone. Cam read that Lennon was on Olsen and that Goodson was going to be open so he threw the ball. He didn't have time to pump fake or do anything fancy. Plus pump faking to Nannee brings the defenders toward Nannee and Goodson not away. And Lennon wasn't going to cover Nannee no matter what.

Seriously the more you talk the more it is clear you don't know what you are talking about. I don't mean to be blunt but seriously, give it up. The more you say the worse it gets. I am not going to say anything because obviously I can't have a football discussion with you, you just don't get it. Sorry.

[PantherFanForLife]

Do you not see #25 (Rhodes?) in those pics. Naanee isn't getting any further than Goodson even if he had been thrown the ball.

Oh Christ, not this again #25 again. I've already explained this one a million times so ok if you say so. I disagree, I say he makes the diagonal run and gets the first down.

Pop-quiz: Which defender is closer to his man, #51 on Goodson or #25 on Naanee?

Which of our receivers have the step up and outrunning their man? How do you justify Naanee being taken down, but refuse to acknowledge Goodson is even more closely covered? Which one of the two has more space and time to make a move? How does #25 catch Naanee if, Naanee's running faster?

[PantherFanForLife]

The problem here is that you don't have a basic understanding of what is going on and who is covering who. Not trying to sound better than thou or anything but your points are fundamentally flawed like Teeray said. You keep arguing using logic that isn't the way things are set up.

First off Nannee and Olsen weren't options early unless there was a blown coverage and there wasn't. The play was designed so Olsen who got the ball on the play before and for Nannee to clear the zone for Goodson, not be primary or even secondary receivers. So your premise that Nannee and Olsen were better options is incorrect. They were not early options but late options if Goodson wasn't open which he was.

Lennon didn't bite on Nannee because that wasn't his responsibility. He was matched up with Olsen short. When he saw Goodson come into his zone and saw Nannee took the coverage into the middle, he sluffed off of Olsen and handed him off and took Goodson who came into his zone. Nannee was not his man to cover so by covering Goodson but not Nannee, it didn't make Nannee a better target at all. Guys were already coming into Nannee's area to cover him. And frankly Nannee wasn't even watching Cam early. So no Lennon was not on Goodson the whole time but changed from Olsen to Goodson as Goodson came into his zone. Cam read that Lennon was on Olsen and that Goodson was going to be open so he threw the ball. He didn't have time to pump fake or do anything fancy. Plus pump faking to Nannee brings the defenders toward Nannee and Goodson not away. And Lennon wasn't going to cover Nannee no matter what.

Seriously the more you talk the more it is clear you don't know what you are talking about. I don't mean to be blunt but seriously, give it up. The more you say the worse it gets. I am not going to say anything because obviously I can't have a football discussion with you, you just don't get it. Sorry.

Actually you have just described something I already stated about 8 pages ago. We're waaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond this. Yes I know Lennon was matched up with Olsen at the line of scrimmage. We've already discussed this yesterday and the moment Naanee made his cut and lost his man, both Arizona defenders had to pick up new guys. That's precisely what caused the disruption in the play, leaving Naanee open.

And frankly, you're just blind. If you don't want to see, when I showed it to you frame by frame, then you won't, and there's honestly nothing I can do to win that argument with you there.

Seriously, the more you talk, the more it becomes obvious that you just refuse to acknowledge evidence. Because if you can't look at those pictures, or look at that video and see how Naanee turns his head and looks at Cam before Goodson does, then you really might need to get your eyes checked.

[rayzor]

:lol: it's amazing how many people will continue to talk to a brick wall.

[PantherFanForLife]

:lol: it's amazing how many people will continue to talk to a brick wall.

Just as amazing as how many it takes to make a brick wall? ;)

“When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.” -Socrates

And on that note, I think this argument has run its course.