Some constructive criticism on Cam Newton's performance. Please don't shoot.

[PantherFanForLife]

You know what?

I know you're not an idiot but some of the posts you make well......

You quote Socrates but do you know what Dostoyevsky says about sarcasm?

You should look it up.

And yes I do think Cam is awesome, there's nothing wrong with that.

I also think Adrian Peterson and a handful of other players are awesome.

I thought Cam was one of the best QB prospects I've ever seen.

And you know what? Throwing for 422 2 TDs and 1 Rush TD in his first game kinda supports my feeling. (btw its the best debut for any QB ever not just rookies)

BTW this is what I actually wrote, in the future don't lie:

Since you're trying to avoid the topic i'll make it just a little bit harder for you to dodge this question.

BTW-Rivera said that Goodson was the primary.

Do you understand the difference between primary receiver and 1st read in the progression?

Because the 2 are not the same.

I do. And I also understand there's no possible way for you to tell me with any amount of certainty who the first read in Cam's progression was, considering you also can't actually see his eyes or know what's going through his head. The most you can do is assume. Personally I assume he's reading the guy's he's passing too. Lennon appears to have thought the same thing.

And sure it appears you're trying to be objective.

But speaking of avoiding....straight up. Answer me this question:

In your objective opinion, who do you believe is a better choice for a QB to pass to: a wide open receiver, with no defender within 4 yards and room to run, or a RB with a LB in the process of wrapping his arms around the RB before the ball can get there, 4 yards shy of a first down?

[edromeo]

I do. And I also understand there's no possible way for you to tell me with any amount of certainty who the first read in Cam's progression was, considering you also can't actually see his eyes or know what's going through his head. The most you can do is assume. Personally I assume he's reading the guy's he's passing too. Lennon appears to have thought the same thing.

LoL, I never stated I knew what Cam's 1st read was, quite the contrary I was the saying that there is no way for any of us to know.

And if Cam is only reading the guy he's throwing to then there is whole lot wrong with the design of that play.

But speaking of avoiding....straight up. Answer me this question:

How about you answer any of the questions I previously asked you?

That's how a discussion works.

In your objective opinion, who do you believe is a better choice for a QB to pass to: a wide open receiver, with no defender within 4 yards and room to run, or a RB with a LB, in the process of wrapping his arms around the RB before the ball can get there, 4 yards shy of a first down?

To objectively answer a question, the question must first be objective.

What you're asking is a leading question or a presupposition which requires me to accept your view point as correct.

I do not.

Why don't you ask me an objective question then I'll answer it.

Anyway my wife is telling me that if was gonna spend all my time arguing about football on the interent I should have coached this year.

So I gotta go.

But here's my get away statement:

Pre-snap there are only 2 defenders on the left side of the field.

That makes the left side of the field the side I would want my QB to work.

I think the best match-up on the field in most games is Steve Smith one on one vs any DB (except for the elite guys).

The DB played over Steve with inside leverage, this would have left Steve open for a backshoulder fadestop ala:

But, like I said already I think the best choice would have been Smith 1-on-1 w/ Peterson on a back shoulder fadestop:

[PantherFanForLife]

Ah you edited. I'm pretty sure I answered every one of your questions. If I missed something, let me know. And the question is objective. It just happens to lead to the obvious answer, and you avoid it. But hey, I know how wives can be ;)

As far as your video, we already discussed that yesterday too.

[edromeo]

Ah you edited. I'm pretty sure I answered every one of your questions. If I missed something, let me know. And the question is objective. It just happens to lead to the obvious answer, and you avoid it. But hey, I know how wives can be ;)

As far as your video, we already discussed that yesterday too.

Off the top of my head I can think of 3 definitions (IIRC) that I asked you about: stem, banjo and Hi-Lo progression

I'm sure there were others.

And if you discussed the play I'm sure you see its viability? No.

As far as your question goes try again.

C'mon; there is no way you think that question is objective.

It contains premises that you know I don't agree with.

Its about as objective as me asking someone: Why are they stupid?

[PantherFanForLife]

Off the top of my head I can think of 3 definitions (IIRC) that I asked you about: stem, banjo and Hi-Lo progression

I'm sure there were others.

And if you discussed the play I'm sure you see its viability? No.

As far as your question goes try again.

C'mon; there is no way you think that question is objective.

It contains premises that you know I don't agree with.

Its about as objective as me asking someone: Why are they stupid?

No I did not know what the technical definition of a stem or banjo was. Yes I do understand a Hi-Lo progression.

Which premises do you not agree with? Is Naanee not without a defender around him at the time the ball is released? Is Lennon not within a yard of Goodson already beginning to take him down as the ball is released?

And no I did not see it's viability because, as I said yesterday, the video depicts a back shoulder throw(I was corrected on this terminology) to the sideline where only Aaron's receiver could get the ball, after he got the TD. Aaaron staring at him, made no difference because it doesn't matter if the defender tackles his receiver at the spot of reception. His receiver already had the TD.

It's a completely different situation than the play we are discussing, because not only can other players interfere with the throw but Goodson is also 4 yards short of the first down at the spot of reception. In this case it does matter if Goodson gets tackled at the spot of reception. And it did matter.

[rayzor]

Just as amazing as how many it takes to make a brick wall? ;)

“When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.” -Socrates

And on that note, I think this argument has run its course.

so that means you won? :lol: alright.

i'd be suprised i you could quit.

it's too important to you. one hundred posts in this thread says that's the way it is.

I love how you just keep finding some other excuse every time I shut down a point. Ok so, now that it appears you agree Naanee was indeed looking at Cam and would have seen a pass......what is your point, now? Cam didn't throw to Naanee because 25 was "looking" at him?

What about Lennon? Wasn't Lennon also staring at Goodson and Cam?

Cam saw, but didn't throw to Naanee because of fear from #25, who was looking at him, but he instead chose to throw to Goodson because......he also had his own defender, Lennon, not just looking at him and Cam, but practically touching him?

Did I get you right there?

You might as well say Cam wanted the greater challenge ;)

I think I get it now. I think Cam's awesome too man!

I fixed that for you.

Every time I see that "closing in" statement it makes me smile. Had Cam thrown to Naanee, Antrel would have kicked in that running speed of 1.90 he's been saving all these years and caught Naanee in a heartbeat;)

So what you're telling me now is........you do not consider a receiver who has no defender around him anywhere within 4 yards an open and viable target if there's a risk of getting taken down by the guy looking at him?

It's much better to throw to a RB who has a LB hugging him?

They both have the same chance. That's what you're saying?

I do. And I also understand there's no possible way for you to tell me with any amount of certainty who the first read in Cam's progression was, considering you also can't actually see his eyes or know what's going through his head. The most you can do is assume. Personally I assume he's reading the guy's he's passing too. Lennon appears to have thought the same thing.

And sure it appears you're trying to be objective.

But speaking of avoiding....straight up. Answer me this question:

In your objective opinion, who do you believe is a better choice for a QB to pass to: a wide open receiver, with no defender within 4 yards and room to run, or a RB with a LB in the process of wrapping his arms around the RB before the ball can get there, 4 yards shy of a first down?

Ah you edited. I'm pretty sure I answered every one of your questions. If I missed something, let me know. And the question is objective. It just happens to lead to the obvious answer, and you avoid it. But hey, I know how wives can be ;)

As far as your video, we already discussed that yesterday too.

No I did not know what the technical definition of a stem or banjo was. Yes I do understand a Hi-Lo progression.

Which premises do you not agree with? Is Naanee not without a defender around him at the time the ball is released? Is Lennon not within a yard of Goodson already beginning to take him down as the ball is released?

And no I did not see it's viability because, as I said yesterday, the video depicts a back shoulder throw(I was corrected on this terminology) to the sideline where only Aaron's receiver could get the ball, after he got the TD. Aaaron staring at him, made no difference because it doesn't matter if the defender tackles his receiver at the spot of reception. His receiver already had the TD.

It's a completely different situation than the play we are discussing, because not only can other players interfere with the throw but Goodson is also 4 yards short of the first down at the spot of reception. In this case it does matter if Goodson gets tackled at the spot of reception. And it did matter.

:lol:

[PantherFanForLife]

Shut up rayzor;)

[edromeo]

Which premises do you not agree with? Is Naanee not without a defender around him at the time the ball is released?

25 is around Naanee and closing, but you already know I think this because I've made it clear.

That's why your question isn't objective.

(BTW-What Lenon is doing to Goodson is PI)

the video depicts a back shoulder throw(I was corrected on this terminology) to the sideline where only Aaron's receiver could get the ball,

Right.

And the way Smith is being played would make the throw even easier then the throw to Jennings.

...... Aaaron staring at him, made no difference because it doesn't matter if the defender tackles his receiver at the spot of reception. His receiver already had the TD.

...Um you're getting your arguments mixed up again. I don't care if Cam stares down a fadestop, you kinda have to stare it down.

[PantherFanForLife]

25 is around Naanee and closing, but you already know I think this because I've made it clear.

That's why your question isn't objective.

(BTW-What Lenon is doing to Goodson is PI)

Right.

And the way Smith is being played would make the throw even easier then the throw to Jennings.

...Um you're getting your arguments mixed up again. I don't care if Cam stares down a fadestop, you kinda have to stare it down.

And my problem with your argument is who the heck cares if 25 is "around and closing in" when Lennon is MUCH CLOSER and WRAPPING GOODSON UP?

This is where your logic fails and argument breaks down.

Naanee's open. Goodson's not. Period.

[edromeo]

And my problem with your argument is who the heck cares if 25 is "close and closing in" when Lennon is MUCH CLOSER and WRAPPING GOODSON UP?

This is where your logic fails and argument breaks down.

Naanee's open. Goodson's not. Period.

Um yeah, I'm not re-hashing that argument. I thought you would see by now that we're not going to agree.

But, your 'logic' fails because both Naanee and Goodson are open. (open means capable of catching a pass without the pass being broken up by a defender, therefore Goodson was open because he caught the pass, however; Goodson was unable to get the 1st down/TD)

Naanee or Goodson could have scored or could have been stopped.

In my previous I wasn't re-hashing the debate, its a moot point.

I was answering why your question wasn't objective.

Because it includes a premise that you know I don't agree with.

Therefore the question is a presupposition i.e. not objective.

Again its like asking someone: why are you a jerk?

Its not objective because it requires the person answering the question to agree to the premise implied in the question.

I'm having Deja Vu.

Anyway no response to the fadestop? That's what I'm interested in talking about.

Its would have been an option that ,if completed, gains the needed yardage.

[panthers55]

Ok for a change of pace lets talk about what could have been options. You want the fade stop. What are the parameters? Is this to Smitty, Nannee or someone else. What defense are they in? Cover 2 or cover 3. Is this fourth down and like in the game, had Cam missed several throws and this was his last chance.

[PantherFanForLife]

Um yeah, I'm not re-hashing that argument. I thought you would see by now that we're not going to agree.

But, your 'logic' fails because both Naanee and Goodson are open. (open means capable of catching a pass without the pass being broken up by a defender, therefore Goodson was open because he caught the pass, however; Goodson was unable to get the 1st down/TD)

Naanee or Goodson could have scored or could have been stopped.

In my previous I wasn't re-hashing the debate, its a moot point.

I was answering why your question wasn't objective.

Because it includes a premise that you know I don't agree with.

Therefore the question is a presupposition i.e. not objective.

Again its like asking someone: why are you a jerk?

Its not objective because it requires the person answering the question to agree to the premise implied in the question.

I'm having Deja Vu.

Anyway no response to the fadestop? That's what I'm interested in talking about.

Its would have been an option that ,if completed, gains the needed yardage.

What was wrong with that question? Bad premise too?

You see, we're never going to agree because you keep avoiding to answer questions that would force you to concede a losing point, so you continue to change your definitions of simple terms, such as for example what "you" consider an open receiver. And I'm not sure what you want to say by the fadestop, but until you answer mine(or you could just go ahead and concede Naanee is simply the better choice, because he's by far the only one that can be considered wide open and save us both the time), I'm not going to keep answering yours. There's no reason for me to continue debating with you, if you simply never concede. It will continue forever.

So, if you want me to talk about something else, first answer my question or concede your point. Then, we can move on to something else.

In case you need a reminder, I'll re-state it:

In your objective opinion, who do you believe is a better choice for a QB to pass to: a wide open receiver, with room to run and his defender 4 yards away, OR a running back with a LB in the process of tackling him who is 4 yards shy of a first down?

[panthers55]

In your objective opinion, who do you believe is a better choice for a QB to pass to: a wide open receiver, with room to run and his defender 4 yards away, OR a running back with a LB in the process of tackling him who is 4 yards shy of a first down?

Too simplistic a question. Lets clarify by asking is the wide receiver Steve Smith or Legedu Nannee. Is the runnng back Mike Goodson, Jonathan Stewart or someone else. And who are the defenders and where are the mismatches. How has the quarterback done on that series throwing the ball? Are we looking for a difficult throw or an easy one? Is this first down or fourth down.

Think about it instead of arguing right away and the answer will be clear.

[I am Hubby]

What was wrong with that question? Bad premise too?

In case you need a reminder, I'll re-state it:

In your objective opinion, who do you believe is a better choice for a QB to pass to: a wide open receiver, with room to run and his defender 4 yards away, OR a running back with a LB in the process of tackling him who is 4 yards shy of a first down?

Let me ask you a question. With a rookie QB playing his first game. Do you want him to run the play that is called, or do you want him to freelance?

Please give me a break with this "I want him to be more aware" poo. Let him learn first. Then he can start making it up as he goes along.

Sheesh.