Some constructive criticism on Cam Newton's performance. Please don't shoot.

[PantherFanForLife]

I have watched the play 6 times in slow mo. I still don't think you are right. I think Cam made the right read and 8/10 times Goodsen beats the LB. The LB just made a good play.

You could make a better case for Olsen than Naanee IMO but he didn't come open until after Cam had already made his decision, he was also covered by a DB, and Cam may have needed to hold the ball for one more tick that he didn't have because the blitzer on his right was closing in fast. Naanee (if he was even an option on the play) might make it around the corner but I'm not very confident he makes 4 yards after the catch with the ref in his way (see photo 1) and two defenders closing in on him. Plus #31 was on the outside of Laffell so I'm not sure Laffell gets that block. That is a lot of stuff for Naanee to overcome when Goodsen is one on one with a LB. Plus if you look at pic one and then pic 2 Naanee's defender had already closed the gap between them by 10 feet and Naanee is still 4 yards short of the first down.

Goodsen gave us a better chance IMO. He wins that battle 8/10 times. I still think Cam made the right decision and the LB just made a heck of a play.

I can see no amount of logic is going to convince you. Neither defender was "closing in" on Naanee, unless you wanna throw away physics, speed, momentum and reality.

Naanee had more than a step on Antrel, who was just then starting to run, and the fact #31 is on the outside is a GOOD THING for that route. Not a bad thing. He's got to get around 11 to get to Naanee. 11 would have ran between the two, parallel to Naanee's route. At the point shown in the first pic, #31 is actually in-between switching directions and shifting his momentum in the opposite direction Naanee is running, at full speed. Lafell is moving towards the middle of the field so he's having to go back the other way in order to stick by Lafell. He's actually worried about Lafell, not Naanee.

Look again:

In the second pic the play's already dead, the ball's in the air, and Naanee's already slowed down. That's why it looks like 31 is "closing in". Naanee stopped running once he saw who the ball was thrown to.

I only posted the second pic to show you Olsen had the inside route on his guy, but that could have also been anticipated at the point depicted in the first pic. Cam would have not had to "wait" at all. He would have thrown the ball at the same time or earlier because you can anticipate the route. Olsen's route was clearly designed to go there from the get go, so that didn't require any adjustment. By the time ball gets to the back and left of the endzone, so does 88....ahead of #20, where only 88 can make a grab for it. It's no different then throwing a fade pass to the side of the endzone.

PS: I was going to remind you those defenders can't touch the receivers until after they catch the ball, and that made me realize yet another possibility. Lafell, #11, actually had the 1st down at that point too PLUS the inside route as well, and if Cam would have thrown him the ball at that point, he would have either caught it and we get to decline a Pass Interference call, or we get the PI. Notice 31 with his hands on Lafell. Heck that may have actually been the best choice if Newton would have looked left.

[teeray]

I can see no amount of logic is going to convince you. Neither defender was "closing in" on Naanee, unless you wanna throw away physics, speed, momentum and reality.

Naanee had more than a step on Antrel, who was just then starting to run, and the fact #31 is on the outside is a GOOD THING for that route. Not a bad thing. He's got to get around 11 to get to Naanee. 11 would have ran between the two, parallel to Naanee's route. At the point shown in the first pic, #31 is actually in-between switching directions and shifting his momentum in the opposite direction Naanee is running at full speed.

Look again:

In the second pic the play's already dead, the ball's in the air, and Naanee's already slowed down. That's why it looks like 31 is "closing in". Naanee stopped running once he saw who the ball was thrown to.

I only posted the second pic to show you Olsen had the inside route on his guy, but that could have also been anticipated at the point depicted in the first pic. Cam would have not had to "wait" at all. He would have thrown the ball at the same time or earlier because you can anticipate the route. Olsen's route was clearly designed to go there from the get go, so that didn't require any adjustment. By the time ball gets to the back and left of the endzone, so does 88....ahead of #20, where only 88 can make a grab for it. It's no different then throwing a fade pass to the side of the endzone.

PS: I was going to remind you those defenders can't touch the receivers until after they catch the ball, and that made me realize yet another possibility. Lafell, #11, actually had the 1st down at that point too PLUS the inside route as well, and if Cam would have thrown him the ball at that point, he would have either caught it and we get to decline a Pass Interference call, or we get the PI. Notice 31 with his hands on Lafell. Heck that may have actually been the best choice if Newton would have looked left.

My analysis of the play is coming from the actual play and watching it frame by frame not snap shots of the play you provided. You are pretty much wrong on every level IMO.

The only other half way compelling argument is for Olsen but he is matched up with a DB. You should probably take the RB versus the LB instead of a TE versus a CB if you can help it. It is pretty clear that Lafell and Smith are both just occupying their men and not actually involved in the play. With Naanee it is harder to tell if he is just clearing out the coverage or actually involved in the play but did you consider the ref that was right in Naanee's way and also in the throwing lane in your apparent synopsis that Naanee was a slam dunk for the first down? Look where the ref is in pic one when Cam is stepping up and look at where he is after Cam releases the ball. The ref ran right in front of Naanee and into the passing lane.

As a matter of fact you are flat wrong about your second pic and Naanee having slowed down. In that frame Naanee is still full speed because he is still clearing the passing lane. He doesn't slow until he is parallel to the extra point line and the ball is right on top of Goodsen. That is why he ends up standing on the the outside edge 4th down graphic about 10 feet outside the left hash at the end of the play and about 20 feet to the left of where he is in that 2nd pic.

And Lafell isn't going anywhere. He barely moves from the first pic to the second pic. He doesn't even really run a route because he isn't a part of the play. Just from the design of the play it looks like they are clearing out the side for Olsen and Goodsen and those are his only two progressions. Maybe Naanee but running him right into Lafell seems like a poor play design if Naanee is a real option.

Goodsen was the right read and gave us the best chance IMO. Just because the LB made a heck of a play doesn't mean the read was incorrect.

[AviationMX]

I was just...

[PantherFanForLife]

My analysis of the play is coming from the actual play and watching it frame by frame not snap shots of the play you provided. You are pretty much wrong on every level IMO.

The only other half way compelling argument is for Olsen but he is matched up with a DB. You should probably take the RB versus the LB instead of a TE versus a CB if you can help it. It is pretty clear that Lafell and Smith are both just occupying their men and not actually involved in the play. With Naanee it is harder to tell if he is just clearing out the coverage or actually involved in the play but did you consider the ref that was right in Naanee's way and also in the throwing lane in your apparent synopsis that Naanee was a slam dunk for the first down? Look where the ref is in pic one when Cam is stepping up and look at where he is after Cam releases the ball. The ref ran right in front of Naanee and into the passing lane.

As a matter of fact you are flat wrong about your second pic and Naanee having slowed down. In that frame Naanee is still full speed because he is still clearing the passing lane. He doesn't slow until he is parallel to the extra point line and the ball is right on top of Goodsen. That is why he ends up standing on the the outside edge 4th down graphic about 10 feet outside the left hash at the end of the play and about 20 feet to the left of where he is in that 2nd pic.

Goodsen was the right read and gave us the best chance IMO. Just because the LB made a heck of a play doesn't mean the read was incorrect.

Where do you think those shots came from? I watched the video myself a million times already. I'm also backing it up with stills so I don't do what you do: I think you're wrong because I think so.

And no, LaFell is not just occupying his man. LOL. There's no such thing as designing routes that serve no purpose other than just to occupy their man. That was an inside route he ran meant to be another option for a first down, not a TD.

Every route the receivers ran on that play was actually ran perfect and designed with a purpose of either getting a TD or a first down. Smith and Olson's were the only two designed to get the TD in the endzone. Goodson and Lafell were designed for a first down with the possibility of a TD. And Naanee's slant, was designed to throw the D off, but also with the option for either. None of the receivers were just "decoys".

I don't feel like drawing another pic for Lafell route again, but you should be able to tell by looking at his position from pic 1 to 2 or watching the video. That's just another common route receivers make that I have seen countless times in the NFL. They run just past the 1st down marker while pushing their defender back, turn around right in front of their defender, so their backs are to the defender and wait for the ball, typically right in their stomach area, or where they have to crouch a little low to protect it from the defender getting his hand around. That's what Lafell was doing. He wasn't just occupying his man. If Cam opts to go for Naanee, then at that point, Lafell becomes a blocker for Naanee's slant route.

And as far as your referee excuse...it's ridiculous. Maybe you would have a point if we lived in a two dimensional world, but if you are watching the video you should have seen the replay:

Cam's throwing lane and timing to hit Naanee takes place before he ever gets to the referee, visible on the LEFT side of the screen.

[edromeo]

No, 11 pages later, I think everyone agrees with the original point that Cam needs to work on how to be more aware, and not stare down his number 1, pre-snap option.

I agree that Cam like most QBs in the NFL need to work on this aspect of their game.

But I don't agree that Cam this play is an example of him not being aware nor staying with his 1st read too long.

Naanee had more than a step on Antrel, who was just then starting to run, and the fact #31 is on the outside is a GOOD THING for that route.

25 is playing off Naanee but he has plenty of room and has a good angle to stop Naanee short.

Not to mention that 31 has a chance to get in on the stop and there is another Peterson on the outside should Naanee continue running flat across the field.

Yours is but 1 take, you think its Naanee is both wide open and would have scored I don't think Naanee a better chance of scoring then Goodson.

Well never know its all speculation.

Its not cut and dry like the interception Cam threw when he had Olsen/Shockey open in the flat.

I only posted the second pic to show you Olsen had the inside route on his guy, but that could have also been anticipated at the point depicted in the first pic. Cam would have not had to "wait" at all. He would have thrown the ball at the same time or earlier because you can anticipate the route.

If Cam throws the ball early 25 is looking directly at Cam.

Cam would have to wait until 25 closes on Naanee in order to make that throw and even then its risky.

It's no different then throwing a fade pass to the side of the endzone.

Its very different from throwing a fade because this throw is over the middle of the field.

Lafell, #11, actually had the 1st down at that point too PLUS the inside route as well, and if Cam would have thrown him the ball at that point, he would have either caught it and we get to decline a Pass Interference call, or we get the PI. Notice 31 with his hands on Lafell. Heck that may have actually been the best choice if Newton would have looked left.

In order for to make a throw to Lafell on time Cam would have had to make a pre-snap read and changed the read progression from frontside(playside) to backside where Smith and Lafell are.

Cam is being blitzed so there is no time to make a full field progression read from playside to backside.

Whichever direction Cam starts the progression is pretty much the side where Cam has to throw unless he extends the play.

Yeah but the CB on Steve Smith is way off. Smith is lined up on the 7 and the DB is on the goal line. Fade stop is a risky play there and a difficult throw that has to have precision timing

Playing 'off' against a backshoulder fade-stop only makes the throw easier.

I don't think its as risky a throw as throwing it to Olsen on the skinny post, but I agree that its not a high efficiency throw.

I don't think Lafell would have been a bad choice.

But, like I said already I think the best choice would have been Smith 1-on-1 w/ Peterson on a back shoulder fadestop:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnafuHkAL-Y

Why can't I post youtube?

[necroplasm]

It's easy later on to review the play and say what Cam should have done. But in the heat of the moment, in that situation.. with that pressure, I can't expect much better results or... make too much out of it.

Remember that analogy Cam himself made about instant grits & collard greens?

Missed opportunities by all 3 phases were the main factor in this loss.

[OARevolution]

Ok I haven't logged on to this board in forever but reading this I just had to. After the game Rivera said he liked the match up we had with Goodson so it was designed to go to him the whole way. Now Cam only had a little over a second to get rid of the ball because of the defender coming in on him. He really doesn't have time to make multiple reads.

I would have liked for him to try and throw it over the top to Olsen and have Olsen try and come down with it. I would not have thrown the fade to Smitty because throwing a fade on 4th down with the game on the line to me is just ridiculous. Too much of a risky play. I liked the Goodson play but it shouldn't have been the 4th down call. I don't like any play with the game on the line where you throw it in front of the sticks unless you absolutely have to. Thank you Titans Super Bowl.

Also for the people saying Goodson shoulda fought harder for the first down, there was really no way. He was wrapped up immediately and had no chance. It was a great defensive play.

Also there are plays that are designed to take defenders out of the equation. There are deep routes that try to occupy the safety. There are also decoy routes. We used to put Peppers out there in the redzone every now and then. We threw to him a few times but most of the time he was out there to be a decoy and draw attention. I don't know if Nannee was trying to draw the defense away for Goodson on this play or not, that's for the coaches to know, but plays are designed for peeps to be open and that play was designed to go to Goodson.

[PantherFanForLife]

25 is playing off Naanee but he has plenty of room and has a good angle to stop Naanee short.

Not to mention that 31 has a chance to get in on the stop and there is another Peterson on the outside should Naanee continue running flat across the field.

Yours is but 1 take, you think its Naanee is both wide open and would have scored I don't think Naanee a better chance of scoring then Goodson.

Well never know its all speculation.

Its not cut and dry like the interception Cam threw when he had Olsen/Shockey open in the flat.

If Cam throws the ball early 25 is looking directly at Cam.

Cam would have to wait until 25 closes on Naanee in order to make that throw and even then its risky.

Its very different from throwing a fade because this throw is over the middle of the field.

In order for to make a throw to Lafell on time Cam would have had to make a pre-snap read and changed the read progression from frontside(playside) to backside where Smith and Lafell are.

Cam is being blitzed so there is no time to make a full field progression read from playside to backside.

Whichever direction Cam starts the progression is pretty much the side where Cam has to throw unless he extends the play.

I don't think Lafell would have been a bad choice.

But, like I said already I think the best choice would have been Smith 1-on-1 w/ Peterson on a back shoulder fadestop:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnafuHkAL-Y

Why can't I post youtube?

Smith was covered pretty well actually. And again, 31 just didn't have the speed to catch up to Naanee. If he was actually Naanee's defender, I could see that, but his man was 88, and he had to let him go, switch directions and pick up Naanee. As far as Lafell goes, and changing his pre-snap progression, that's exactly what he should have done regardless. I think that WAS part of the design.

It's simple logic.

Even if the play was intended to go to Goodsen, it would have never been designed for Cam to stare him down and never look anywhere else. It would have been designed for Cam to look right, look left, fake(or something to this effect), and then just dump it back to the right to Goodsen when he gets in position, since he was the last one to get open.

If the play was designed for Goodson, then they had to build a fake/sell into it, because they knew from the get go Goodson would be the last guy to get to his position and there was time that needed to be killed.

I don't care how you look at it or from whatever angle you choose to view it from, there were better options on that play. And there's no way I believe our OC decided to run a play in 4th and Goal on the last possession of the game that only gave our QB one viable target, who happened to be the last one to get open and NO possible alternatives if he fails to get open. By the time Goodson got open everyone else was basically at the end of their routes, including Smith.

If that's the case, I'm screaming bloody murder. But come on guys.....it wasn't. It was a play with multiple open targets. Cam just didn't look for them. And that's the end of the story.

[rayzor]

y'all still talking about this? :lol: wow. too funny.

Why can't I post youtube?

you're doing it wrong.

quote and see how.

[OARevolution]

y'all still talking about this? :lol: wow. too funny.

you're doing it wrong.

quote and see how.

OMG Aaron Rodgers stared down his receiver!

[PantherFanForLife]

OMG Aaron Rodgers stared down his receiver!

Errr...apples and oranges. Aaron's receiver is running a sideline fade who is basically the first guy to get open and he starts off his route lined up at the line of scrimmage. It doesn't freaking matter if he's staring him down because he's the ONLY guy that's going to catch that ball if he makes the completion and there's no time for anyone else to interfere. If the defender tackles him it's when he's already got the first down or TD.

Our so called "intended receiver" is lined up next to our QB pre-snap and is the last guy to get open in position. If Arizona's defender reads Newton's target, which he did, and tackles Goodson, which he did, we don't get the first down or TD, which we didn't! Newton could have stared Goodson down all day too, if the intended completion was to be made past the first down marker and he was the only one who could get that ball. It wouldn't have mattered if he got tackled. That was not the design of Goodson's route at all.

Alright, it's just silly now. I can see you guys will just not accept any kind of criticism against Cam, and I can understand the excitement, but ya'll are pulling straws at this point.

PS: Rayzor you almost had me going in thinking you knew more about breaking down plays than I did, but come one man....even I can figure that one out!

[OARevolution]

Yeah I think it was a bad play call for 4th down. That was a back shoulder throw to Jennings not a true fade. I would have had no problem throwing that to Smitty. Like I said I hate not throwing past the sticks.

[PantherFanForLife]

Yeah I think it was a bad play call for 4th down. That was a back shoulder throw to Jennings not a true fade. I would have had no problem throwing that to Smitty. Like I said I hate not throwing past the sticks.

Fine. It's called a back shoulder throw....the point remains the same. Aaron's got no reason to hide it when he's receiver's going to be the only one past the marker that can catch the ball. When the defender's allowed to touch him, he already has the first down or TD.

I don't think it was a bad play to call. Newton had 5 viable targets, and 3 of them were on open on the right side of the field, the same side he would be looking for his intended target, Goodson.

I do think the previous 4 were bad calls considering not a single run play was called from the 11 yard line in 4 down territory.

[rayzor]

Errr...apples and oranges. Aaron's receiver is running a sideline fade who is basically the first guy to get open and he starts off his route lined up at the line of scrimmage. It doesn't freaking matter if he's staring him down because he's the ONLY guy that's going to catch that ball if he makes the completion and there's no time for anyone else to interfere. If the defender tackles him it's when he's already got the first down or TD.

Our so called "intended receiver" is lined up next to our QB pre-snap and is the last guy to get open in position. If Arizona's defender reads Newton's target, which he did, and tackles Goodson, which he did, we don't get the first down or TD, which we didn't! Newton could have stared Goodson down all day too, if the intended completion was to be made past the first down marker and he was the only one who could get that ball. It wouldn't have mattered if he got tackled. That was not the design of Goodson's route at all.

Alright, it's just silly now. I can see you guys will just not accept any kind of criticism against Cam, and I can understand the excitement, but ya'll are pulling straws at this point.

PS: Rayzor you almost had me going in thinking you knew more about breaking down plays than I did, but come one man....even I can figure that one out!

:confused::confused:

nevermind...not interested. you're spending way too much time and energy on one stupid play. too much talk about what should have been.

hitting the repeat button here.

if the play called for newton to get it to goodson who should have been in position to get the first down (and that's on goodson not newton) unless he wasn't available and then take option b followed by option c...then thats what he's supposed to do. it doesn't matter at that moment where anyone else is. if goodson was in a position that he could make the catch, newton was supposed to throw it to him. thats the way it works.

thats all i've said. really nothing more to say.

/my part in this discussion that is going nowhere because the one driving it is too caught up in trying to prove some meaningless point.