Cutler to bears!!!!!!!!

[Darth Hater]

I don't think the Bears got a fifth.

Personally if someone told me we were going to trade Jon Beason, Jeff Otah, Charles Johnson and Delhomme for Cutler, I'd be less than excited. And I actually think he's a good Qb.

The difference is withg Beason, Otah and Johnson the two sides involved would know the talent their giving up/getting. the Bears are giving up unproven draft picks that may turn out or not but know they're getting aproven Probowl talent. As far as the draft picks, It's a gamble at both ends when looked at from this point if view. Bears scored!

[Fireball77]

I am not going to debate that Orton is more talented that Cutler because as far as raw potential, Cutler has what scouts love to see while Orton is a regular joe. But I was curious to see how the two would stack up efficiency wise if I projected Orton's stats to what they would be if he had thrown 616 passes like Cutler did last year.

Cutler's stats: 384/616, 62.5% completions 4,526 yards, 25 tds, 18 INTs

Orton's: 272/465, 58.5% completions 2,972 yards, 18 tds, 12 INTs

Orton's stats projected for 616 attempts using all his actual averages:

360/616 (58.5 comp %) for 3,937 yards (6.39 YPA) 24 tds (3.9% td rate), 14 INTS (2.6% int rate).

Not that much difference really. Of course there is more to consider than just simply projecting the stats since football is a team game. So let's consider...

Other factors: Chicago has a much tougher weather factor than Denver does. Orton was hobbled by a bad ankle for half the year I believe (correct me if I am wrong Bears fans). The Broncos' stable of receiving possibilities far > the Bears'. There is just no sensible way to argue otherwise. The Broncos OL allowed Cutler to be sacked 11 times and the Bears line allowed Orton to be sacked 27 with 151 fewer attempts. I will give you that Cutler helps the line somewhat because he can snap that ball out fast, but that isn't all of it. Cutler is also much more reckless with the ball than Orton and was judged by KC Joyner to the worst QB in the NFL last year in decision making. Even if you don't buy what Joyner is selling, I think that his RZ INTS and INTS thrown inside his own 20 would make you shake your head (4 of each I think).

Chicago WRs accounted for about 300 fewer YAC than Denver receivers which put them at 18th in the NFL to Denver's 5th. Orton also played one fewer game than Cutler. If you add the 300 yac he may have gotten in Denver and the extra 198 pass yards (his per game average) he would have gotten if he had played another game, that puts him at 4,435 yards for the year. I did not even add that yardage into his projected totals though.

Cutler had a bad run game I keep hearing. Well ok then, Cutler's run game averaged 116 YPG and Orton's averaged 104.6 ypg. I get that Orton isn't as much of a threat to beat you downfield, Den's opponents were more afraid of Cutler's arm and all that, but that is a pretty significant difference and if nothing else, refutes the constant refrain that Cutler had a horrible run game for a pass first team. If that is the case, what was Orton's for a run first team?

Cutler had an offensive mastermind developing him, and Orton had Turner and played for a defensive minded HC. I doubt any Bears fan out there thinks that Turner is a better OC than Shanny. So now the script is flipped, and Orton will have the offensive minded HC who is good with QBs and Cutler the defensive minded HC and average type OC. This will be interesting to watch for sure.

Denver and Chicago were virtually locked up in points scored on offense, so having a talent like Cutler and a good stable of pass catchers did not translate to superior production: 23.4 (Den) and 23.1 (Chi). The Denver offense was horrible in terms of point scoring efficiency vis a vis their yardage output which is why I HATE when people keep saying Denver had the 2nd offense in the NFL last year. In yards...who cares?

Defense, Cutler's made him suffer unnecessarily, I hear a lot. I don't blame QBs for their defense at all unless they put them in that position a bunch.

Fact is that Denver had an awful defense in points allowed, 28 ppg. Even for a team built on offense, that's bad. Chicago's wasn't a dominant unit either especially for a team built on defense at 21.9 ppg. Denver's defense scored 2 tds, Chicago's scored 3. Not much difference there. So yes, Denver's defense was a huge issue with the team. Hence it was a good decision to trade Cutler and pick up extra draft choices to improve that unit. Efficient to good offenses and stud defenses are what win championships. Madden-like passing offenses with an average to below average defense in the playoffs do NOT win championships. Ever.

Finally, age isn't a factor in deciding between the two because they they are both mid twenties and just 1 year apart. For the dollars they have commanded and will command, Orton seems to be the better value for the dollar. If Cutler is a true "franchise QB" as far as being able to make that much of a difference in W-L simply due to his ability regardless of the other teammates around him, then obviously he is worth it to the Bears team and fans. However, I just don't forsee that happening. I believe that the Bears were likely thinking only of potential here, because the actual performance efficiency alone of the two QBs with everything else taken into account doesn't really suggest that it would be wise to make a trade of that magnitude. And all this is even before we take the demeanor of the two guys into account.

I truly believe that the Broncos will be fine on offense with an Orton type of QB. Hence, the downgrade they took in terms of raw talent won't doom their team to losing or having an inefficient enough offense that it prevents them from winning games. Time will tell.

[dimbee]

I am not going to debate that Orton is more talented that Cutler because as far as raw potential, Cutler has what scouts love to see while Orton is a regular joe. But I was curious to see how the two would stack up efficiency wise if I projected Orton's stats to what they would be if he had thrown 616 passes like Cutler did last year.

Cutler's stats: 384/616, 62.5% completions 4,526 yards, 25 tds, 18 INTs

Orton's: 272/465, 58.5% completions 2,972 yards, 18 tds, 12 INTs

Orton's stats projected for 616 attempts using all his actual averages:

360/616 (58.5 comp %) for 3,937 yards (6.39 YPA) 24 tds (3.9% td rate), 14 INTS (2.6% int rate).

Not that much difference really. Of course there is more to consider than just simply projecting the stats since football is a team game. So let's consider...

Other factors: Chicago has a much tougher weather factor than Denver does. Orton was hobbled by a bad ankle for half the year I believe (correct me if I am wrong Bears fans). The Broncos' stable of receiving possibilities far > the Bears'. There is just no sensible way to argue otherwise. The Broncos OL allowed Cutler to be sacked 11 times and the Bears line allowed Orton to be sacked 27 with 151 fewer attempts. I will give you that Cutler helps the line somewhat because he can snap that ball out fast, but that isn't all of it. Cutler is also much more reckless with the ball than Orton and was judged by KC Joyner to the worst QB in the NFL last year in decision making. Even if you don't buy what Joyner is selling, I think that his RZ INTS and INTS thrown inside his own 20 would make you shake your head (4 of each I think).

Chicago WRs accounted for about 300 fewer YAC than Denver receivers which put them at 18th in the NFL to Denver's 5th. Orton also played one fewer game than Cutler. If you add the 300 yac he may have gotten in Denver and the extra 198 pass yards (his per game average) he would have gotten if he had played another game, that puts him at 4,435 yards for the year. I did not even add that yardage into his projected totals though.

Cutler had a bad run game I keep hearing. Well ok then, Cutler's run game averaged 116 YPG and Orton's averaged 104.6 ypg. I get that Orton isn't as much of a threat to beat you downfield, Den's opponents were more afraid of Cutler's arm and all that, but that is a pretty significant difference and if nothing else, refutes the constant refrain that Cutler had a horrible run game for a pass first team. If that is the case, what was Orton's for a run first team?

Cutler had an offensive mastermind developing him, and Orton had Turner and played for a defensive minded HC. I doubt any Bears fan out there thinks that Turner is a better OC than Shanny. So now the script is flipped, and Orton will have the offensive minded HC who is good with QBs and Cutler the defensive minded HC and average type OC. This will be interesting to watch for sure.

Denver and Chicago were virtually locked up in points scored on offense, so having a talent like Cutler and a good stable of pass catchers did not translate to superior production: 23.4 (Den) and 23.1 (Chi). The Denver offense was horrible in terms of point scoring efficiency vis a vis their yardage output which is why I HATE when people keep saying Denver had the 2nd offense in the NFL last year. In yards...who cares?

Defense, Cutler's made him suffer unnecessarily, I hear a lot. I don't blame QBs for their defense at all unless they put them in that position a bunch.

Fact is that Denver had an awful defense in points allowed, 28 ppg. Even for a team built on offense, that's bad. Chicago's wasn't a dominant unit either especially for a team built on defense at 21.9 ppg. Denver's defense scored 2 tds, Chicago's scored 3. Not much difference there. So yes, Denver's defense was a huge issue with the team. Hence it was a good decision to trade Cutler and pick up extra draft choices to improve that unit. Efficient to good offenses and stud defenses are what win championships. Madden-like passing offenses with an average to below average defense in the playoffs do NOT win championships. Ever.

Finally, age isn't a factor in deciding between the two because they they are both mid twenties and just 1 year apart. For the dollars they have commanded and will command, Orton seems to be the better value for the dollar. If Cutler is a true "franchise QB" as far as being able to make that much of a difference in W-L simply due to his ability regardless of the other teammates around him, then obviously he is worth it to the Bears team and fans. However, I just don't forsee that happening. I believe that the Bears were likely thinking only of potential here, because the actual performance efficiency alone of the two QBs with everything else taken into account doesn't really suggest that it would be wise to make a trade of that magnitude. And all this is even before we take the demeanor of the two guys into account.

I truly believe that the Broncos will be fine on offense with an Orton type of QB. Hence, the downgrade they took in terms of raw talent won't doom their team to losing or having an inefficient enough offense that it prevents them from winning games. Time will tell.

If you saw as many overthrown deep balls as I saw last year from Orton, you would appreciate this trade more, Fireball. You would understand the inherent value in acquiring a player with Cutler's proven ability to throw the rock

[Fireball77]

Certainly, you have more game viewing knowledge of the Bears than I do so I don't doubt your observations at all. I will have to chase it down, I can't remember where I saw it, but I think I read that Orton's deep ball accuracy wasn't that far off from Cutler's. I also don't dispute that Cutler's arm strength allows him to complete balls that Orton's does not allow him to though. Either way, McDaniels has already shown that he can win games with a QB who isn't a great deep ball thrower and has a subpar defense if he has a good receiving corps & OL to work with. That describes the current situation in Denver, I think.

I am more trying to convey my opinion that Denver is not suffering the downgrade people might think they are.

[Darth Hater]

Bottom line is that all the scientific analyzing and "what ifs" and "yeah buts" aside, the Bears just scored a top 10 QB in this league

[thefuzz]

Good write up FB...

In my opinion, the Donks made out better...but I am a lover of draft picks.

Orton is an underrated QB, and with some help could develop into one of the better game managers in the game.

Denver getting a quality starting QB, and getting rid of a potential locker room problem, while getting two firsts to help out on D will benefit them more than the Bears getting a stat guy..

[Darth Hater]

Good write up FB...

In my opinion, the Donks made out better...but I am a lover of draft picks.

Orton is an underrated QB, and with some help could develop into one of the better game managers in the game.

Denver getting a quality starting QB, and getting rid of a potential locker room problem, while getting two firsts to help out on D will benefit them more than the Bears getting a stat guy..

When exactly was Cutler a locker room problem before this new punk coach got to Denver and started fu*king everything up? All of his former teamates seem to endorse him highly, have you heard something different? I also love draft picks but when Jerry Angelo is your favorite team's GM it's all about rounds 2-7

[mantal]

When exactly was Cutler a locker room problem before this new punk coach got to Denver and started fu*king everything up? All of his former teamates seem to endorse him highly, have you heard something different? I also love draft picks but when Jerry Angelo is your favorite team's GM it's all about rounds 2-7

Never, his teamates loved him, but he didn't handle this well, no doubt about that. Look at how Jason Campbell handled his situation...

[Fireball77]

Perhaps I am interpreting what fuzz said incorrectly but I took "lockerroom problem" to mean that possibly it would have created a divided lockerroom had Cutler stayed after the things he said in the press during all of this.

[carpanfan96]

It's from Peter King and his MMQB has a few topics in it about the trade and inside information on the trade and trading Partners.

1. The key to the trade was Kyle Orton. Laugh if you want, but it's the absolute truth. McDaniels looked hard at tape of the available quarterbacks from teams that made serious offers, players like Orton, Washington's Jason Campbell and Tampa Bay's Luke McCown. Every one of those teams was in the ballpark with an offer of at least two first-round draft picks and a quarterback.

But as the deal went down, McDaniels, who watched every offensive snap of more than 10 Bears games with Orton playing, got more and more impressed with Orton's arm, his decision-making and his ability to extend plays when the pocket broke down. You can think and I can think it's crazy he didn't like Campbell -- who got Washington off to a 6-2 start last year -- more than he liked Orton, but it's the unvarnished truth. McDaniels thinks he can win with Orton.

Link

[Fireball77]

And having an idea what McDaniels likes in a QB, I agree with McDaniels 100% if those were his choices. I am a bit surprised he didn't think more of Campell though.

I used to think that Bowlen was one of those showboat type owners, he roamed the sides in a fur coat, etc. but I have come to respect him much more over the years and certainly sided with him on this one. I disagree that McDaniels and Cutler were a match made in heaven though...again having an idea what McDaniels values in a QB. Headstrong nature, putting yourself above the team by speaking ill of them in the press, and high int% are three of the things I bet he doesn't like.

[Epistaxis]

Pretty much nails it.

I understand fans of other teams not getting it.

No Bears fan worth a crap doesn't get it.

[thefuzz]

When exactly was Cutler a locker room problem before this new punk coach got to Denver and started fu*king everything up? All of his former teamates seem to endorse him highly, have you heard something different? I also love draft picks but when Jerry Angelo is your favorite team's GM it's all about rounds 2-7

Look at my post....potential locker room problem.

And I hear ya, but I am not hearing you, about the drafting in the first problem. It sounds like ya'll have had problems, but still I would think it's tough to continue to F up the first round.

[Epistaxis]

Maybe this will help.

23 QB's since McMahon, a retrospective of absolute garbage.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/chi-03-bears-qb-chart-apr03,0,7382832.story