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I mean, what are we arguing about here? I don't think anyone at this point (at least I hope) thinks that Icky is dog sh¡t. Now is he a top five OT in the league? No. Is that going to stop him from being paid like one? Maybe not if the nature of the beast---the business of player contracts and their negotiations within the context of recent history---comes into play. I think that we can all agree that Icky leaves a lot to be desired in pass pro, but is a beast in run blocking. Some suspect that he may be better as an OG, but the fact is is that even average LTs are hard to come by. As long as we don't have an elite LT, the belief that one is in the draft (and transcends other needs), the patience to wait for one to emerge, or the money and willingness to buy one, Icky is our best option. I think that we can all see that, regardless of PFF, right?

The main deal with Prince is, how will pads affect his type of play?? Just like I feel pads will greatly help Nic scourton, I feel they will hurt Prince "practice" play dominance. My deal is after years of straight up weak ass players playing soft, I more than welcome this confidence. He just needs to beware that its a thin line to cockiness and that's what you DO NOT want. I hope he does "break teppers pockets" in 3-4 years, I low key loved that line to the owner of ALL people....plus the fact its David Tepper the only 100% owner......I hope he's as good as he thinks he is..... This is similar to hornets drafting all those gym rats, full effort rookies...... Panthers do have a loser mentality same as hornets. New blood can help change that, by the looks of everything....... Panthers have some rookies that are not going to fall in line with the loser sink of the past 6 years. I mean nearly everyone UDFAs, 2025 drafted class, and free agent class that's one hell of culture adjustment.

And, for the record, PFF refers to its stats (and not just as a name): https://www.pff.com/news/pro-pff-premium-stats-highlighting-all-of-pffs-advanced-metrics-and-grades They don't grade "arbitrarily" either, they use their system.

"spiderman Light" I miss the boat with Brano. I thought at worst he would be a ST ace. I had him as the top backup that gets 8 sacks. (in a minor defense, he was a gunner on ST a few times). Think like Al Wallace or Mario Addison, he just didn't have the drive or talent it seems. He's been injured for 2 years now and was "hurt" during the OTAs, mini camp......Panthers honestly kept him much longer than they should. Maybe he will realize the NFL is not a rehab facility. 6th rounders do have less success than UDFAs.

No, I have read too many things from PFF over the years; PFF specifically said that they use advanced statistics, but that statistics don't tell the entire story, which is why they came up with their system. At this point you're just being adversarial for no reason. Stats play a big role in what they do.

You might want to re-read that. They're specifically saying they DON'T use stats. They arbitrarily judge each play and then extrapolate that into a grade.

This!

You're correct (on its face). But PFF does indeed use advanced stats to come up with their grades. Not trying to turn this into a debate about PFF (at all because it's been done ad nauseum), but here is how PFF explains it: GRADES VS. STATS We aren’t grading players based on the yardage they rack up or the stats they collect. Statistics can be indicative of performance but don’t tell the whole story and can often lie badly. Quarterbacks can throw the ball straight to defenders but if the ball is dropped, you won't see it on the stat sheet. Conversely, they can dump the ball off on a sequence of screen passes and end up with a gaudy looking stat line if those skill position players do enough work after the catch. PFF grades the play, not its result, so the quarterback that throws the ball to defenders will be downgraded whether the defender catches the ball to notch the interception on the stat sheet or not. No amount of broken tackles and yards after the catch from a bubble screen will earn a quarterback a better grade, even though his passing stats may be getting padded. The same is true for most positions. Statistics can be misleading. A tackle whose quarterback gets the ball out of his hands quicker than anybody else may not give up many sacks, but he can still be beaten often and earn a poor grade. Receivers that are targeted relentlessly could post big-time numbers but may offer little more than the product of a volume-based aerial attack. https://www.pff.com/grades So PFF uses stats to come up with player grades and rankings.

Not even what that's about. Moreover, remember that search engines are a tool.

Knowing how a person is compared to everyone else is always better.

PFF grades aren't stats.

Icky is a great run blocker and solid pass blocker. Keep in mind he is only 24 and has been through Rhule, Wilks, Reich, Tabor, and now Canales. He finally gets a second year of the same offense which is good for someone considered pretty raw in pass blocking coming out of college. I love the fire from Princely! Keep it coming and I hope it’s contagious!

One last thing then I'm done. I don't think most people realize what he was dealing with exactly in 2022 and 2023. Read about his disease and imagine playing in the NFL with this. Ulcerative colitis (UC) is a chronic inflammatory bowel disease that causes inflammation and ulcers in the lining of the large intestine (colon) and rectum. Overview Ulcerative colitis is one of the most common forms of inflammatory bowel disease (IBD), alongside Crohn's disease. It primarily affects the colon and rectum, leading to various symptoms that can significantly impact daily life. The exact cause of UC is unknown, but it is believed to involve an abnormal immune response, genetics, and environmental factors. Symptoms Common symptoms of ulcerative colitis include: Diarrhea: Often with blood or pus. Abdominal pain and cramping: Discomfort in the lower abdomen. Weight loss: Due to reduced appetite or malabsorption of nutrients. Fatigue: Resulting from inflammation and nutrient loss. Urgency to defecate: A strong need to have a bowel movement. Fever: In some cases, especially during flare-ups. Symptoms can vary in severity and may occur in cycles of flare-ups and remission, where individuals experience periods of no symptoms at all.

Horn is making the team. He will be valuable on special teams as well as a receiver.

Yeah he jukes Moe so bad he isn't visible in the video for 3 secs. He beat him with the first move and Moe didn't expect the second move and was burned badly on that route.

Which stats were wrong?

If the google says it’s true, it’s true.

LLM snippets are not clarity.

Ekwonu is not exactly dog sh¡t, and is actually in the top half at his position in pass pro, but he's close to middle of the pack. This gives a little more clarity. In my opinion, Icky is a sidenote, the bigger takeaway is that Princely basically says he's not gonna be stopped by anybody.

Well, you get the picture. https://catcrave.com/veteran-redemption-arc-stealing-show-panthers-training-camp-hunter-renfrow

Something tells me that all of the hand wringing and pearl clutching over halting the practice earlier possibly destroying his confidence was... well... stupid

That's right. @t96 @mrcompletely11 and some others are selectively discounting Renfrow's healthy seasons. Renfrow was diagnosed with his illness in 2022, so one would expect production to fall (and fall drastically). Now I'm not saying that ulcerative colitis can't return, because it can, and that must be considered, but when Renfrow is healthy, he's a legit WR3, so it is very realistic that he could be third in receptions.

That depends on where he's at because if you look at his first 3 seasons before he got sick he had 49 rec as a rookie followed by 56 and then his pro bowl season he had 103 rec. If he's somewhere between seasons 2 and 3 then that wouldn't be bad at all. We'll have to wait and see but from the few clips I've seen and the comments I've heard and read I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case. Personally, I'm really pulling for him and I think he's going to be the comeback player of the year.

More praise of Renfrow from Tim Weaver (formerly of USA Today's Panthers Wire, now SI.com), and also what I told some of you, my Huddle friends, from the start: keep it all in perspective, and don't conveniently---and perhaps unfairly, discount and label Renfrow as a JAG when it was a very debilitating illness affecting his play. "It's understandable to be skeptical about Renfrow's abilities at this late point in his career. After all, he missed all of last season due to a bout of ulcerative colitis that also took a serious toll on his production in 2022 and 2023." When Renfrow is healthy, he's an above average guy. Being 29 may hurt or help his chances depending upon perspective, but 29 for receivers generally means that there's still (sometimes plenty) gas in the tank. Renfrow also obviously has plenty of motivation and has come with his game face. "Then agan, seeing is believing and by all accounts Renfrow has been very impressive since joining the Panthers a few months ago... Where Renfrow will fit in Carolina's new-look receiver corps remains to be seen, but at this rate it's going to be hard to exclude him from the initial 53-man roster." https://www.si.com/nfl/panthers/hunter-renfrow-sick-route-panthers-training-camp Read the room, ladies and gentlemen. And don't get it twisted; Renfrow isn't the most talented receiver on the team, but we have seen his ceiling, when healthy, in a Raiders offense that wasn't necessary replete with talent. Consider what he can do, especially in the slot, in a Panthers offense primed with young talent (no pun intended). From sick to "sick routes," eh?