tukafan21

Spoken like someone who A. doesn't know enough about T-Mac's game and B. someone who is afraid of our own past of taking the big physical projects in the late 1st or 2nd round and them not panning out, as T-Mac isn't a late 1st raw project type of prospect. But it's okay, either people are going to be thrilled in a few years when he's earning All Pro's here in Carolina, or you're all going to realize how right I was on him when he's doing it for someone else.

I said this in another thread recently, and I know people will scoff at me even bringing up another Arizona player given my T-Mac feelings. But if we're going to give a rookie a shot, take a look at Arizona's Tyler Loop. I'll be 100% honest in that I have no idea how to properly evaluate a kicker's NFL potential, but what I can say is that the kid has a MONSTER leg. Hit a 62 yarder this year and the number of long kicks he'd put OVER the net was insane, think he put a 48 yarder over it this past season if I remember correctly.

Garrett has been a DE his whole life and was the #2 overall high school prospect as one, Parsons was a MLB until 3 years ago and is still learning the position. Despite that, Parsons still had 10 more sacks in his first 4 years than Garrett had, albeit in 12 more games. If Garrett’s numbers have been historical, what have Parsons’ been when he is ahead of Garrett’s pace while still learning the position? My whole point was you wouldn’t be making the trade for one game or even one season, Parsons is the one you’d want moving forward, and I don’t think he’s as far behind in current impact as you think.

Sure, then we have very different definitions of "blue chip" then, as to me, I think of it like in college recruiting, a "blue chip" prospect is a 5 star guy, the elite of the elite. For me right now, there are 4 in that group at the moment, Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, and Lamar, and I think even the biggest Bryce backer would have to be out of their mind to say they think he is going to reach the level of those guys. Which is how it was being used in this thread, it was being in reference to Garrett, who yea, I put in the top 3 best pass rushers right now, if I'm drafting a new team, it's Garrett, Parsons, and Watt all in the discussion for 1st pass rusher taken for me, that's a blue chip player. And also, again, I'm not wishing for this to happen, I'd LOVE it if Bryce were to prove me wrong, I just don't see it. For me, his mental part of the game is only ever going to take him so far when he'll always be near, or at, the bottom of the league in physical talent at the QB position. There has been 1 of those guys before him, Brees, and Bryce is smaller with a weaker arm, he still needs to be the biggest outlier in league history to live up to the trade and be what you think he will be. But again, prove me wrong Bryce, I'd be happy to eat crow on this as it's what is best for the franchise, but I'm still going to call it like I see it until it's proven one way or the other.

lol, you think I'm unrealistic about T-Mac's potential but you actually think Bryce can be a "blue chip player" next year?!?! Even if I thought differently about Bryce (and I don't), he's never going to be a blue chip player, ever. A "blue chip" player is an All Pro, a Top 2-3 player at their position, and I don't care what you think about Bryce, he's NEVER going to be a Top 3 QB in this league, ever. To think Bryce can be a Top 3 QB is so much more ridiculous than if I were to say T-Mac will be the best WR in the history of the NFL (which I'd never be dumb enough to say anyways). Hell, you could say Bryce will be a Pro Bowler in the next year or two, and that still doesn't qualify him to be a "blue chip player"

I'm not saying he is or isn't, they're probably the two best pass rushers in the game (Watt makes it a 3 man conversation for me), trying to say one is better than the other is more or less pointless. But when Parsons is younger and there can even a debate between who is better, if I'm giving up too much to get anyone, I'm going with the guy who is 3.5 years younger every time. All of that is to say that I still don't think either is a good trade. That's a trade you make when that one player can push you into legitimate SB contention, and we're not that one player away even before you factor in the picks and cap room we'll lose to get him, all of which are needed to even get us just into playoff contention in the next couple years, let alone SB contention. We're still years away from hoping to contend, every offseason we try to find the quick fix, all it is is one step forward and 3 steps back. And this isn't about keeping the 8th pick for the hope at the guy everyone here knows I want, it's about building the roster up correctly, not throwing a hail mary while trying to fit the square peg into the round hole to expedite a process that realistically can't be expedited.

There is no world where I'd ever be okay with giving up future 1st round picks, for any player, until we know if Bryce can be the future or not (and for all you Bryce backers, you can't honestly say he's already proven that he can be). I also don't believe for a second that Garrett who is asking for a trade not because of money, but because he wants to win, would be okay with coming here where we're not 1 player away from winning. All while at the same time, trading for him and extending would take us out at the knees to build the rest of the roster out that we'd need to actually contend anyways. AND.... even if I were okay with it, I'd much rather go after Parsons than Garrett, younger and might actually be the better player as well.

First, you keep saying Mike Williams... you mean Evans, lol But second, if this is true, it would be really ironic given T-Mac also excelled on making plays on the scramble drill with his QB as they've played together since 8th grade, they do that well together. The difference is those plays generally didn't end up in much YAC for T-Mac, as he was either coming back to the ball to find a hole in the traffic to make the catch and go down for the first, or they were throws towards the sideline where he was making the play while just keeping his feet in bounds.

Oh yea, I also forgot about this one I posted a few days ago. If Evans plays fast but T-Mac doesn't, why is the fastest Evans' has been clocked at in a game 20.6 MPH while T-Mac has been clocked at 21.8 MPH?

Nope, but try again

Thank you People can say what they want about him as a prospect, opinions vary and I take no issue with that. It's when people ignore things like this when talking about statistics that get to me. Arizona's leading recieving yards this year after T-Mac were... 323, 245, 217, 196, 196, 172, and 109 with 2 of the 3 guys over 200 yards being a TE and RB as is. Texas A&M's other leading receiving yards in Evans final year... 818, 658, 626, 240, and 210, with all 5 of them being WRs to take defensive attention away from Evans. There was not only zero fear by other teams about the other weapons, they straight up dared Arizona to beat them by leaving them open to double and triple team T-Mac constantly. And even then, those players, the QB, and play calling was so poor that they not only couldn't take advantage of that, but T-Mac was still good enough to finish 4th in the nation in yards (prior to bowl games) and I think only fell one or two spots if you just entirely removed his 300 yard game anyways.

If he plays so slow, how was he 5th in the Big 12 this year in YAC? Luther Burden, who everyone here lauds as an elite post catch guy, had 676 yards this season. T-Mac who everyone here claims is slow and plodding, had 430 yards AFTER the catch this season. But yea, he's slow, stiff, and just a 50/50 ball type of WR.

And this is why teams don't draft players off of reading cherry picked box scores, but by watching film, because this doesn't come close to telling the story of his season or even those games. That Colorado game for example, T-Mac only had 7 targets all game, of those 7, he caught 5 of them, with 3 for 1st downs, the other two still ended up as first downs with a pass interference and a roughing the passer penalty on them, and then sat for most of the 4th quarter as the game was over. I can't stress enough how bad Arizona's coaching staff failed T-Mac this year, and short of having access to full game footage and knowing how to cut it all together into a video to show you all, I can't properly counter other than saying to trust me, which I know won't go over well here. I'm not sure I've ever seen a team double a WR off the snap with a 3rd man also over the top of them as was done to him this year, because teams had zero fear of our QB or other weapons being a threat to them. The play calling this season was beyond atrocious, the Arizona fan base was calling for the firing of the entire coaching staff all year long, it was really really really bad. Literally, I think the Arizona fan base was more upset with our staff this year than this fan base was ever upset with Rhule (and no, I'm not joking, it was that ugly) Hell, even beyond any of that, Evans had a Heisman winning QB and future 1st round pick throwing him the ball in a crazy pass happy offense, but sure, let's ignore that and put it all on the two players. Evan's QB stats his Jr season - 300 completions, 4,114 yards, 37 TDs T-Mac's QB stats his Jr season - 260 completions, 2,958 yards, 18 TDs And again, cherry picking box scores is just dumb anyways. Because yea, I can do the same thing, like how in Evans' 2nd to last college game against #5 Mizzouri, he had 4 catches for 8 yards (and that was with a long catch of 10 yards, so his other 3 were for -2 yards). The whole point is that trying to compare college box scores from over a decade apart is just a fools errand as they aren't really comparable, far too many other factors that comparing WR game logs to each other is just ridiculous.

No, I don’t. in fact, I’ve made numerous posts describing in depth the numerous ways I see T-Mac’s game working in the NFL and with Bryce’s skill set in particular.

LOL If you think throwing the deep ball in college is remotely the same thing as the NFL, then you're just lying to yourself. College defenses SUCK, it's why you see absurd scoring numbers and huge plays on a constant basis. It's an undeniable fact that Bryce doesn't have a cannon for an arm, trying to argue that Bryce has the arm to take advantage of a true speedster to take the top off the defense is the worst argument anyone can make to help their credibility. This has nothing to do with my love of T-Mac or my feelings about Bryce in general. He has a weak arm, he doesn't have the ability to just throw the ball past the defense and let his WR chase the ball down, which is what people are asking for when they say they want that type of WR. When people refuse to just admit painfully obvious things like that, it's just a bad look. You can LOVE a player while still acknowledging their biggest weakness, and with Bryce, it's his ability to throw the deep ball.

Take out the UNM game entirely and he still had over 1,000 yards on the season, so removing one big game isn't a fair way of looking at the game log breakdown anyways. Beyond that.... In 15 games against ranked teams in his career, he has 90 rec, 1,182 yards, 9 TDs I'm sorry, but in what world can you look at those stats and say he only feasted on bad competition? Then yes, you touched on it and I've never brought it up because I felt his actual play spoke for itself anyways, but he did play this whole season banged up. He got hurt in the spring/summer and missed all of fall practice, they weren't even sure if he was going to be ready for Week 1 of the season until the week of the game and you could see he was a bit hobbled at times this year. And yes, his QB play was awful this year, the coaching and play calling was even worse, and the secondary weapons to take any defensive attention away from him was somehow worse than either of those previous two things.

I swear to god, this has been said so many times by people on here, and I have to call it out for what it is, utter and complete nonsense. This isn't even me pushing for my guy again, it's just dumb. Bryce doesn't have a cannon for an arm, he literally couldn't even properly take advantage of the type of player you're talking about here if he wanted to. If you want to say we need an uber quick fast twitch WR to get the ball into their hands and let their speed make plays, that's totally fair. But to say we need that true speedster deep threat (and I know you didn't include "speedster" but if you're saying "true deep threat" instead of a "jump ball guy" it's clearly what you mean) is just nonsense when our QB has probably the weakest arm of any starting QB (and again, think what you will about Bryce's potential, that's just an indisputable fact). Honestly, I have no idea what people are watching when they say stuff like this Basically every single "expert analysis" of T-Mac as a prospect talks about how he's surprisingly fluid and a threat after the catch for a player of his size. If you want to talk about his speed and how fast/slow he looks to you, that's something I can't knock as yes, his overall speed is his one main weakness. But to say Evans looked more fluid than T-Mac is again, just literal nonsense, everything else you think about him as a prospect aside.

To be fair, Burns and Chinn made sense as Burns wanted more money than made sense for the player he is and Chinn wasn't coming back here since we weren't using him, while Luvu we tried to re-sign but couldn't. Don't get me started on the DJ or CMC trades though, they both still infuriate me beyond belief. Give me the two of them and all our draft picks over Bryce any day of the week.

Yea I get what you're saying, my comment was just in general, that a team with as many holes and as few cornerstone players as we have, trading one of those few good players, injury history aside, would just be exactly something we'd end up doing. I get that injury history needs to be considered, but in the end, we don't have enough of a built out roster to trade him, we have to take the risk. It can be structured in a way that it minimizes our risk on the back end of the deal so we can get out of it after a year or two without much pain in case he gets hurt, but signing him to an extension is a must. Hell, we could always threaten him with the franchise tag the next 2 years to force him to show he can stay healthy and use it as leverage to get him to sign a shorter contract now instead, which would actually benefit both sides. It gives us the chance to make sure he stays healthy, and it allows him to either hit FA or sign another extension in 2 years and cash in then if he stays healthy. Sign him now to a 3 year extension at just over the franchise tag number, on a front loaded deal. If he stays healthy, in 2 years we sign him to a monster contract, if he can't, then he made more money than he would have on the franchise tag and we get out of it without much future cap hits.

That's not my point, I'm just saying it's a very micro way of looking at it. As I said to someone a week or two ago when they said "we need high draft picks on the defensive side of the ball" That's just a flawed way of looking at building a roster, we need to have impact players on the defensive side of the ball, not necessarily high draft picks, they're two different things. Everyone keeps talking about going all defense in this draft, but the reality is we need to just forget about the draft right now and focus on defensive FA's. If we target and sign the right players in FA, namely not trying to spread our cap around but sign 1-2 serious impact players with at least one being a pass rusher, then it opens up all sorts of draft possibilities. Even if we went defense with every pick of our draft, they better not be the most impactful newcomers on the team next year, as it then means we screwed up our free agency.

I get what you're saying, but it's also kind of a disingenuous way of phrasing it when the best player on our whole team is a defensive lineman. Also, sometimes the best pass rush is by having great coverage downfield so the QB has to hold the ball longer, even the best offensive lines can only block players for so long before one gets loose to the QB

This would be peak Panthers Draft someone in the Top 10, stick with them for 3 years while they can't stay on the field due to injuries, despite other teams likely willing to give up a decent pick for him. Player finally has a full healthy season and makes the Pro Bowl. Panthers don't want to extend him and then trade him for a 2nd round pick for us to draft another bust.

Nah, I'd rather stay where we are in the 2nd and use those 5th rounders to move one of the 4th's up into the 3rd instead. With all our holes, we can find a useful player in the 3rd, I'd rather fill an extra missing spot than get a better player in the 2nd. In particular, I think that would be a great way to find our Center of the future, give up the 4th and like 2 5ths to move into the middle of the 3rd round to target a Center if there is one we like.

Yes we need to improve our defense, but I think people are taking the wrong thing away from last night's game. Yes, the Eagles defensive line pressure was amazing all night long and it's what won them the game, but it's not like they just did that to some dominant OL, Mahomes has been under pressure from pass rush a lot lately. The Eagles DL was great, but I think a takeaway the league at large is going to take is more on the other side, that if you can't protect your QB, no matter how good he is, it's not going to matter.