tukafan21

But that's the WR4 this year, we only have one year left of Thielen. If Coker has injury issues and/or regresses and shows why he went undrafted, unless Horn ends up REALLY living up to the minicamp hype, we'd actually end up in need of another good WR option next offseason again. I love the potential of T-Mac, XL, Coker, Horn as our 1-4 next year and into the future. And while I of course have a million percent belief that T-Mac is going to be that guy for us, it's still a big year for the rest of the WR room to prove we're set at the position for the foreseeable future once Thielen is gone after the season.

Yes and no If there is someone we really want, maybe he's able to throw enough money to convince them to come here over somewhere else. But at the same time, if I'm an UDFA, unless I'm just looking for a quick money grab before heading into a normal career, I'm telling my agent to get me to the team I'm most likely to get a chance to make the team and/or be seen enough to then get picked up by someone else. Any good agent should be steering their UDFA's that way anyways, not like they're making all that much money on a "big" guarantee like these, they stand to gain much more from a client who makes a roster.

Honestly, it would haver been difficult for any WR to look that good with the type of rookie mini camp we held anyways, really it was either look bad or just look normal. At least from what we saw, there weren't any 1 on 1 drills like other teams did where a WR could have made a nice catch or beat a DB, it was just a bunch of running against air on very basic routes. You can certainly look bad if your routes/cuts aren't crisp or you drop some passes, but in a setting like that it's really hard for any player to stand out and look great unless the QB is making some terrible throws and they make some wild catches. With these type of RC MC's, DL can look good if they're firing through the drills and QB's can look good with their passing, most other positions you can really only look bad if anything stands out. Once they get into OTA's we'll be able to start to see some players standing out more.

Have they said when the Blueprint Draft episode is going to be released? Kinda weird to put out the teaser but not a date for it, already itching to watch all the T-Mac stuff

Honestly, for me, I actually don't care all that much about being the 1st overall pick and him living up to that selection. It's the trade we made to go get him that he has to live up to for me. You can't be even just an average starting QB after a trade like that, because if that's all we're getting out of it, we could have kept going with journeyman type of QB's or taken a shot on a Jalen Milroe type in the 2nd to get similar play but then have kept Moore and all those other draft picks to build around them.

I'm less concerned about Young getting hurt while rushing, because like you said, he doesn't take a ton of risks when he scrambles. I'm far more concerned that at his size, a crushing sack by a big DL might snap his body in half. But this topic is exactly why I'm not very high on Jayden Daniels long term outlook unless he drastically changes the way he plays. He basically looked like RG3 pt 2 out there last year, he runs with reckless abandon and doesn't protect himself from hits very well. If he keeps that up, he won't have a long career and/or he's going to miss significant chunks of time every season due to picking up injuries.

I think the "Top 10" classification is much more simple than people think, at least for me. Put every QB in the league into a re-draft of only QB's, does this player go in the Top 10 of that draft or not? If they do, they're a Top 10 QB, if they don't, they're not. And yes, things like age/contract would matter in a real QB draft, but in this instance things like that or future injury concern are thrown aside, essentially looking at it on a year to year type of thing as you're talking about a current Top 10 list.

And we all know Cam also struggled as a passer at times, but he MORE than made up for it with what he brought to the running game. In one of my posts I also mentioned how if he was putting up Lamar like 75+ yards rushing on a weekly basis that it changes how to view the lower passing yardages. Cam might not have been averaging 75 yards a game, but he had more than a good amount of rushing yards and also holds the record for most rushing TDs by a QB in NFL history.

Yea, I don't really care what PPF ratings you're trying to talk about, if you think Bryce was the 6th best QB over the final 8 weeks of the season last year, then you're out of your freaking mind. You're probably the guy who goes to a strip club and thinks the stripper is in love with you. The 6th best QB in the league doesn't throw for more than 251 yards only twice in that 8 week span and not even real 300 yards once, just nonsense to think otherwise, drops or WR play aside, it's just crazy talk.

Exactly He's played two seasons and started 28 games. He's well beyond the point of being able to point to 2 or 3 games and being able to say, "THAT is the QB he is and will be in the future" Of course he can get there, but anyone trying to use just those couple of games to rank his place amongst the games QB's today and their full career's worth of playing at that level, is just asinine. Mahomes, Allen, Lamar, Burrow, Hurts, Herbert, Daniels, Stafford, Goff, Geno, Purdy, Baker, Love, Dak, Tua, Kyler, Lawrence That's 17 QB's right there that have played better over their careers than Bryce has played at his best. And I'm not saying they're all studs or guys I'd want to be our QB moving forward, Tua for example I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole, but his body of work is a million times better than Bryce's has been. It's also not including any of the other QB's drafted in 2023/2024 other than Daniels. So again, say you believe in Bryce, say you think he's going to prove he can and should be our QB of the future, that's all fair and totally fine. But nobody can say he's been an above average QB in his career thus far, it's just an asinine notion.

Do you even know what the term "below average" means? Because I'm genuinely not sure if you do. There are 32 QB's in the league, which means to be playing "above average" he'd have to be the 15th best QB at the league, and even then, that's in essence the "average NFL QB" still. Even going by these rankings, which have him 20th, that by itself is the definition of "below average", and that's before you consider there are multiple QB's ranked below him in this list that I'd 100% trade him for in a heartbeat. Again, no matter what you think the eye test tells you, he's made 28 starts and has a grand total of FOUR games over 247 yards. Drake Maye has made 10 starts, all with a significantly worse group of pass catchers than Bryce has had, and he already has 3 games over that number himself. I don't need to see or know anything else beyond that to determine he is a below average QB in this league so far and I don't know how anyone can honestly argue against that. If he was a Lamar Jackson type putting up 75+ yards rushing on a consistent basis, then you can look at those passing yards differently, but that's not the case here. Could he still improve and get to average or better? Of course. But you're trying to extrapolate a few throws/drives/moments from a handful of games and trying to say that makes him even an average, if not above average, QB in this league. Which is just nonsense when the players you're comparing him to have played at that level for full seasons or their entire careers.

He'd be a huge upgrade for this year, but we're still not going to be contenders with him and I'd rather keep the cap space to roll into next season to spend on a younger player who can be an impact starter for us for the next 3-5 years while we're hoping to contend.

The last 8 weeks, Nix had 2,022 yards, 21 TDs, 6 INTs on 70% completions While Bryce's last 8 games he had 1,709 yards, 12 TDs (albeit adding 5 more rushing), 3 INTs on 61% completions. I'm not going to pretend I watched those Broncos games to know exactly how Nix actually looked, but in retrospect, his statistics were better. Hell, in just his final 8 games, Nix had only 5 less TD passes than Bryce has in his 30 game (28 starts) career. And you said he had better WRs than Bryce did, but I'm not even sure that's even true either. Sutton and Thielen might be completely different types of WRs, but I'd say they are pretty equal on effectiveness if not even a slight edge to Thielen (63.6 YPG for Sutton to 61.5 for Thielen). Then XL and Coker vs Marvin Mims and Devaughn Vale, again, at worst a push, if not lean in our favor there too. Why is it so hard for some Panthers fans to just objectively look at our team/Bryce and be honest with themselves. ? He was significantly improved the final two months of the season from his first season and a half. But he was still a below average QB during that time, even if he had a few good throws and clutch moments.

So.... you're admitting he's never going to be the type of QB who can drag his team to victories on a consistent basis? Because in today's NFL, the teams that are constant contenders have QB's who can put up those kind of games will their team to wins when needed. If Bryce was anything near as amazing last year as the Bryce defenders try to insinuate he was, we'd either have won more games or his stats would have been better, if not both. Yes, he showed significant improvement over the last 2 months of the season. Yes, he had a few clutch moments/throws/drives in that span too. BUT... It's also very much a true statement that on the whole, he was still AT BEST an average QB during that time period. And for a QB who was touted as being a PG who can get wins without elite talent around him because of how he sees the game, that's just not good enough, sorry. And none of that is to say he can't do that this year, especially after we gave him a weapon like T-Mac and hopefully an improved XL and Coker. But stop trying to say he was this amazing QB to end the year who has proven he can (and should) be considered a long term solution as a franchise QB, as it's just not true.

In what way is that remotely the same thing as I'm saying here? First things first, comparing QB's to any other position is just asinine to begin with. Second, you're trying to imply the exact opposite of what I'm saying here, so it just doesn't make sense. I'm saying if you remove the players that teams haven't committed to as their long term QB solutions yet, Bryce is the last player ranked in this set of rankings, that's all. But sure, go ahead and try to make some weird convoluted equivalent for my love of T-Mac (who btw, you'd probably only need to take away 12-15 WRs for me to rank T-Mac #1 in a dynasty format, just sayin, lol)

You and I have drastically different definitions of the world "incredible" He looked very much improved, but seeing as his starting point was competing to be the biggest draft bust in NFL history with Ryan Leaf and Jamarcus Russell, looking very much improved is still a relative term. 3 games over 219 yards passing, only 1 of them over 263, and a high of 298 is nowhere near "incredible" And yes, PLENTY of people on here have been crowning him as having proved himself as a franchise QB and many legitimately think he's going to be a Top 10 QB in this league this offseason. I've said time and again I'm not a Bryce believer, that I think his max potential in this league is a middle of the road average starter, around 16-20th best in the league. That's nowhere near good enough for the trade we made to get him, taking him at #1, or the contracts being given out to starting QB's. I've also said I'm still rooting for him because he's a Panther and him turning out to be a franchise QB is still our fastest path to contending right now. But that doesn't mean I think he's going to end up as such, I think we're either going to end up replacing him after his rookie contract or end up way overpaying for him and what he can do for us, but we'll see.

Not really, the only QB's (other than Anthony Richardson) ranked below him are new to their teams as a placeholder starter or drafted in 2024 or 2025, not a lot of gymnastics to get there. It's not about how many that is, if it's 20, 12, or 2... It means there isn't a QB who's team has committed to them for the long term right now that they have ranked below Bryce. That's not a great thing.

So basically, if you remove 1st and 2nd year QB's not named Jayden Daniels, and remove the vets on new teams who are placeholders until their own rookies take over the job.... The only other QB ranked lower than Bryce is Anthony Richardson, who may not even win the week 1 job in the end anyways. Which means they're ranking him 20th, but really he's the last ranked entrenched starting QB that isn't in their 1st or 2nd season. #Winning

If anything, only getting 1 SB when you had Manning for that long should be a negative on his legacy, just like it was for the Saints to only get 1 with Brees and the Packers to only get 1 each with Favre and Rodgers. I know it's hard to win a SB, but these are basically 4 of the 10 best QB's of all time and combined to win 4 SB's in a combined 60 seasons worth of being a starting QB for those franchises.

I'm was shocked to hear he was only 65, I'd have guessed he was at minimum 75, if not closer to 85.

So you're just going to put words in my mouth? Because literally the very first sentence I said in this thread was that if we're not going to be true contenders (not champions, but just an actual contender, i.e. a team that can win multiple playoff games and have a true chance at making a SB run), that I'd rather miss the playoffs than win the division and then lose in the first round. But you've tried to twist it into me now saying if we don't win it all, then I'd rather miss the playoffs, despite me numerous times in this thread stating that's explicitly not the case, it's solely two options, make the playoffs and lose in the first round or just miss the playoffs, in which I'd rather miss the playoffs by a nose. Have a different opinion if you want, but don't try and tell me I'm saying something I'm not to make your point.

No, I don't root for drops to be what loses a game, especially from a player who has/had drop issues, as that's not showing improvement. And no, I don't resent it if they win, just as I don't "celebrate" if we lose either. But I don't get upset if we lose because I know it's for the best for our future, just like I don't go running through the streets celebrating a meaningless December win that doesn't do anything other than hurt our draft stock in a lost season. In a year like last year and this next year, where we've put considerable assets into the offense at the expense of our defense to be fixed later, something both fans and the team themselves know, as you can only add so many players in any given offseason. Then I'm looking for us to click offensively, have everyone looking better than the year before and show growth. But then the side of our team we know is a weakness, to be the reason we lose in a high scoring game. Give me Bryce going down and taking a 2 point lead with 2-3 minutes left in the game, but then our defense almost holding the other team from getting into scoring position and they end up needing a 55 yard FG to win the game and beat us. That can happen while our young defensive players show tons of promise, but still have one or two too many holes and/or just inexperience that it costs us games in the end, but it's still a successful season of growth and improvement. Or even better, just look great on both sides in a close game and end up getting totally screwed by the refs with a bad late call that hands them the game. And again, those are the kinds of things I'm wanting to see happen once it's already a lost season. And I'm only saying I'd rather not make the playoffs when the alternate scenario is making but losing in the first round. Because those are the scenarios where we improve as a team, get better draft picks, and an easier schedule the next year. You then use the cap space and higher draft picks to fill the remaining defensive holes with impact players and you're then cooking with gas in that next season and have real potential.

Sure, totally fair, but then you seem to be a fan who cares more about entertainment than winning championships, and I can't fault that. But it's been 30 years, I don't care about just having fun in the regular season anymore, I want to win a fuging championship. My two favorite teams that I live and die with are the Panthers and Arizona Basketball. We've never won a SB of course, and I wasn't an Arizona fan growing up and unfortunately went out there for school just after our last Final Four. If you don't count my new Wrexham fandom, my only championships as a fan are the Red Wings and that's been a LONG time. I'm sick of falling short with my teams, I'm done caring about any regular season success with either, I want a SB and I want a Final Four, literally anything short of those at this point are failures in my mind. So for me, yea, I look at EVERYTHING with this team from the lens of "will this help us win a Super Bowl faster or not" And if the answer is that it won't, then I can't get on board with it, sorry if that rubs people the wrong way, I want to win when it matters, not when it doesn't.

No, not it's not. Because in your other scenario the team won 2 playoff games and played in the conference championship, that's so much better for the team than draft picks. Teams don't luck into that scenario, if that happens, it means Bryce proved himself to be our QB of the future and we likely struck gold with guys like Scourton, Princely, and Ransom which helped turn around the defense into a top half of the league unit. Again, that option isn't even on the table in this discussion here, because no poo, everyone here would take that option. It's would you rather make the playoffs but lose in the first round or just miss the playoffs and get better draft picks AND an easier schedule the next year. I'm literally not even sitting here saying "I'd rather lose and miss the playoffs than make it" as I"m explicitly saying the scenario I'm discussing involves missing the playoffs or losing in the first round.