Mike n Mike talk team building

[Mr. Scot]

2 minutes ago, TheRed said:

Where did I remotely approach some sort of warped argument that Hurney is better or Gettleman is worse? Why would that even matter anyway? Does one being worse than the other make you feel better about 6-10 after a nearly undefeated season, and a Super Bowl appearance? It sure as hell doesn't make me feel better. Why do so many fans here cling to making bizarre excuses for medioctrity as a coping mechanism? That's the old Panthers. That's the Panthers that still haven't attained back to back winning seasons.

It's not about your ego, my ego, or the general managers ego, it's about improving the Carolina Panthers. We didn't do what we needed to in 2016. I do not personally believe that is even up for debate. We rolled the dice with or OL, and it backfired big time. There can be no excuses for 2017.

As mentioned, the guy prior to you suggested that Hurney was an OL guru. That's patently false.

Your statement was that it "wasn't Hurney who let Cam get beat up last year".  Come on, Red. We've both been around long enough to know that complains about the O-Line didn't just start happening in 2013.

You want to talk about last season being bad? There are valid arguments to be had, but some of our posters who weren't around here during the Hurney years are engaging in some revisionist history. That's why Hurney's mistakes get brought up.

[iamhubby1]

32 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Well, except for the people who predict doom and gloom every year, and then when we have a bad season say "See? I saw it coming!"

To listen to some, you'd think last year is the only season that counts and 2015 never happened (apparently the prior two years didn't either).

Solid as always, Hub.

 

I have seen it a lot lately. Folks will say "3 straight Divisional Champs", and you get "But, but, but, 14". Or "Our Oline played really well in 15, maybe we thought they could replicate that?", and you get "But, but, we got annihilated in the SuperB owl." Or my new favorite "Shula designed a #1 Offense", and you get "Shula sux, and I don't want to hear about 15." I loved that one.

 

I get it. Folks are frustrated, heck, we all are. And fans in general are known to have short attention spans, and no patience. But right now it is bad around here. It has gotten to the point that if you don't say something bad about a subject, you are a homer, or a nuthugger.

 

I know that the few of us who still see a bright future are in the minority. But man, it is tough to be optimistic with all the frustration going around.

 

Oh well, the life of a fan in the social media age.

[TheRed]

Ahhh, the old "injuries to the OL" excuse.

Pardon me but that is pure horseshit.

The offensive line was all together in the season opener, and they got manhandled the same as they did in SB50.

Stevie Wonder could have seen that coming. But oh no, poor Gettleman, what could he have ever done about those injuries.

Man some of you guys will try anything to convince yourselves this is acceptable.

[Mr. Scot]

2 minutes ago, Krovvy said:

Graham Gano, Ed Dickson, Roman Harper, and Jericho Cotchery were not quite peanuts. Even so if you add all the peanuts together it does amount to quite a bit. Even so, didn't the Panthers that year still carry around five million in cap space into the season?

The drafts always seem to be poor at the time as it takes years to develop players. One player that many wanted the Panthers to draft was Morgan Moses. His rookie year quite a few posters would bring him up as an example of how there was no offensive tackle was worth selecting. However this past year he's turned it around and is doing quite well.

Gettleman's few picks and finds at offensive line are doing well for where they were found, but that doesn't mean the Panthers invested much into these players. A couple of low draft picks, and "put our faith in" players. Until he uses a high draft pick, or makes an Andy Lee like trade, or even just spends some of the Panthers rainy day money I wouldn't say the Panthers are doing everything they can to protect the face of the franchise.

As for depth, I mean depth. The Panthers had twenty million in cap room, and there were players worth signing. It's not unfathomable that the Panthers would try and sign or draft players to fill one of the biggest needs league wide. The Panthers offensive line was exposed to the entire world, I'm sure Dave was watching as well.

 

So Turner, Norwell and Williams all being good is somehow negated by the fact that they weren't first round picks? Yeesh.

Turner and Norwell have been talked about as some of the best young guards in the league. "Good for where they were taken"? Please.

As to spending, you do realize we have a lot of guys to re-sign, right? I'm sure spending right up to the cap limit sounds great in theory, but in practice it's how you wind up consistently having to cut / restructure / whatever until we end up right back in the cap hell we just got out of.

[Mr. Scot]

8 minutes ago, TheRed said:

Ahhh, the old "injuries to the OL" excuse.

Pardon me but that is pure horseshit.

The offensive line was all together in the season opener, and they got manhandled the same as they did in SB50.

Stevie Wonder could have seen that coming. But oh no, poor Gettleman, what could he have ever done about those injuries.

Man some of you guys will try anything to convince yourselves this is acceptable.

And some of us will deny any possibility of something good to cry doom and gloom?

You do recall that we were a missed field goal away from winning that game, right?

[TheRed]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

As mentioned, the guy prior to you suggested that Hurney was an OL guru. That's patently false.

Your statement was that it "wasn't Hurney who let Cam get beat up last year".  Come on, Red. We've both been around long enough to know that complains about the O-Line didn't just start happening in 2013.

You want to talk about last season being bad? There are valid arguments to be had, but some of our posters who weren't around here during the Hurney years are engaging in some revisionist history. That's why Hurney's mistakes get brought up.

Hurney was a bad general manager overall. We know this.

But the problem with endlessly villifying him to make yourself feel better about failure is, without his additions to the overall puzzle, we don't appear in SB50 in the first place.

Cam Newton, Luke Kuechly, Thomas Davis, Greg Olsen, Ryan Kalil, Jonathan Stewart, even Josh Norman.

All turned in crucial performances throughout 2015.

So this whole Hurney, Gettleman, one or the other, worse or better logic is just stupid. We wouldn't have been where we ended up without both. But the fact is only one is still in charge of this ship right now. And we have clear needs, they must be addressed, or heads should roll.

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

And some of us will deny any possibility of something good to cry doom and gloom?

You do recall that we were a missed field goal away from winning that game, right?

Oh yeah, and who missed that field goal, eh?

It couldn't be that same kicker that is currently one of the top paid in the league, and proceeded to turn into Ray Finkle the rest of the season, costing us at least 2-3 wins, could it?

Hmmm.

[Krovvy]

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

So Turner, Norwell and Williams all being good is somehow negated by the fact that they weren't first round picks? Yeesh.

Turner and Norwell have been talked about as some of the best young guards in the league. "Good for where they were taken"? Please.

As to spending, you do realize we have a lot of guys to re-sign, right? I'm sure spending right up to the cap limit sounds great in theory, but in practice it's how you wind up consistently having to cut / restructure / whatever until we end up right back in the cap hell we just got out of.

No they aren't negated, I never said that. They also aren't proof that the Panthers offensive lines under Gettleman were better than under Hurney. However they may be proof that Gettleman doesn't value offensive lineman as much as Hurney. Gettleman seems to prefer to try and find gems for the offensive line, instead of investing heavily into it.

As for cap space, it is what it is. The Panthers had twenty million unspent this past season. They also had extra room in prior seasons for cuts and signings as you've stated.

[grimesgoat]

5 minutes ago, TheRed said:

Where did I remotely approach some sort of warped argument that Hurney is better or Gettleman is worse? Why would that even matter anyway? Does one being worse than the other make you feel better about 6-10 after a nearly undefeated season, and a Super Bowl appearance? It sure as hell doesn't make me feel better. Why do so many fans here cling to making bizarre excuses for medioctrity as a coping mechanism? That's the old Panthers. That's the Panthers that still haven't attained back to back winning seasons.

It's not about your ego, my ego, or the general managers ego, it's about improving the Carolina Panthers. We didn't do what we needed to in 2016. I do not personally believe that is even up for debate. We rolled the dice with or OL, and it backfired big time. There can be no excuses for 2017.

Why would we not "roll the dice with our OL"?  That OL was 17-2.  At one point the OL was 13-0 and Dolphins fans were pooping their pants.

D Williams had a year under his belt and we signed solid depth in Gradkowski.  That Canadian dude never developed so we finally got rid of him and we signed some nice development options to our practice squat.  Its simply not reasonable to expect the Panthers to have all-pros throughout the offensive line and as backups.  

Please consider the possibility that our disappointing season had nothing to do with our front office decisions on offensive line personnel and had more to do with significant injuries, critical turnovers, missed field goals at key moments, and general poor execution on the field, a running quarterback being hit in the head repeatedly with no consequence, having to replenish talent by drafting at the end of every round, growing pains from our rookie corners, and perhaps a half dozen other reasons more significant than the OL personnel.

[TheRed]

1 minute ago, grimesgoat said:

Why would we not "roll the dice with our OL"?  That OL was 17-2.  At one point the OL was 13-0 and Dolphins fans were pooping their pants.

D Williams had a year under his belt and we signed solid depth in Gradkowski.  That Canadian dude never developed so we finally got rid of him and we signed some nice development options to our practice squat.  Its simply not reasonable to expect the Panthers to have all-pros throughout the offensive line and as backups.  

Please consider the possibility that our disappointing season had nothing to do with our front office decisions on offensive line personnel and had more to do with significant injuries, critical turnovers, missed field goals at key moments, and general poor execution on the field, a running quarterback being hit in the head repeatedly with no consequence, having to replenish talent by drafting at the end of every round, growing pains from our rookie corners, and perhaps a half dozen other reasons more significant than the OL personnel.

That OL that "went 17-2" only coincidentally got destroyed in the biggest game in the history of our franchise. Then got destroyed again months later by the same team after we sat on our hands in the offseason. After that things just went right off a cliff.

But who could have seen that happening, right? *vomit*

[Mr. Scot]

6 minutes ago, Krovvy said:

No they aren't negated, I never said that. They also aren't proof that the Panthers offensive lines under Gettleman were better than under Hurney. However they may be proof that Gettleman doesn't value offensive lineman as much as Hurney. Gettleman seems to prefer to try and find gems for the offensive line, instead of investing heavily into it.

As for cap space, it is what it is. The Panthers had twenty million unspent this past season. They also had extra room in prior seasons for cuts and signings as you've stated.

The only first round pick Hurney spent on OL was Gross. Kalil was selected in the low second. Guys like Travelle Wharton and Geoff Hangartner were taken third or later, and Bell was undrafted. And mind you this was over a period of several years, not just four.

Your suggestion that there was some different approach under Hurney doesn't hold water. I get that you want it to, but the facts aren't on your side.

 

[Krovvy]

Just now, Mr. Scot said:

The only first round pick Hurney spent on OL was Gross. Kalil was selected in the low second. Guys like Travelle Wharton and Geoff Hangartner were taken third or later, and Bell was undrafted. And mind you this was over a period of several years, not just four.

Your suggestion that there was some different approach under Hurney doesn't hold water.

 

I think you've just proven it does hold water. High draft picks, mid round draft picks, late round draft picks, and undrafted players all in offensive line.

We can even forget about trading up in the first round to select Jeff Otah and it still holds water.

[Mr. Scot]

8 minutes ago, TheRed said:

Hurney was a bad general manager overall. We know this.

But the problem with endlessly villifying him to make yourself feel better about failure is, without his additions to the overall puzzle, we don't appear in SB50 in the first place.

Cam Newton, Luke Kuechly, Thomas Davis, Greg Olsen, Ryan Kalil, Jonathan Stewart, even Josh Norman.

All turned in crucial performances throughout 2015.

So this whole Hurney, Gettleman, one or the other, worse or better logic is just stupid. We wouldn't have been where we ended up without both. But the fact is only one is still in charge of this ship right now. And we have clear needs, they must be addressed, or heads should roll.

Oh yeah, and who missed that field goal, eh?

It couldn't be that same kicker that is currently one of the top paid in the league, and proceeded to turn into Ray Finkle the rest of the season, costing us at least 2-3 wins, could it?

Hmmm.

Nobody cares to "make themselves feel better about failure" anymore than anyone wants to "protect the status quo" (one of your favorite straw men on here).

Most of us are pretty excited about having a high draft pick and money to spend in free agency. I have no idea why you wouldn't be.

If you can actually find someone who doesn't want to see changes made after last year, by all means, quote them.  I'd love to see it.

[TheRed]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Nobody cares to "make themselves feel better about failure" anymore than anyone wants to "protect the status quo" (one of your favorite straw men on here).

Most of us are pretty excited about having a high draft pick and money to spend in free agency. I have no idea why you wouldn't be.

If you can actually find someone who doesn't want to see changes made after last year, by all means, quote them.  I'd love to see it.

So then you have no problem admitting that our front office bungled the 2016 offseason, right?

[Mr. Scot]

9 minutes ago, Krovvy said:

I think you've just proven it does hold water. High draft picks, mid round draft picks, late round draft picks, and undrafted players all in offensive line.

We can even forget about trading up in the first round to select Jeff Otah and it still holds water.

I'll give you Otah, but he wasn't exactly a great pick (wasn't around long enough to justify that and fell off because of lousy work ethic).

But no, it still doesn't.

You're basically trying to put together an all star line out of guys that were picked over an eleven year period. Doesn't work that way. Lines are built from year to year, and outside of 2003 (the steroid year), 2008 and maybe 2005, our lines were nothing special. That includes Cam's first two years here and equates to us only having solid line play around 25℅ of the time under Hurney.

Spin it how you want. It doesn't work.