Re-picking the drafts of the past 3 years... Who's still here, who is replaced? A Bye week reflection...

[Toomers]

1 minute ago, Woodie said:

You've been around here long enough to know better than that.  If we had chosen Butker over Gano even though Gano significantly outkicked him, and Butker proceeded to have a mediocre season, the vitriol in this place would have been deafening.  

And any team that has Super Bowl aspirations (which we did) will not go out and take a one year rental on a random kicker just to jettison one that has proven to be reliable throughout his career (which despite popular opinion, he was/is) just because of one big miss and a bad game on a broken foot...not only is that not done, it would be irresponsible.  Don't look at this with hindsight, but look only at the information that was available at the time the decision had to be made.  

 

The Pats sent Viniteri packing for Gostowski. The Cowboys just cut the 2nd best PK(%wise) ever. Teams do it all the time. With much better PKs than Gano

[thefuzz]

2 minutes ago, Woodie said:

You've been around here long enough to know better than that.  If we had chosen Butker over Gano even though Gano significantly outkicked him, and Butker proceeded to have a mediocre season, the vitriol in this place would have been deafening.  

And any team that has Super Bowl aspirations (which we did) will not go out and take a one year rental on a random kicker just to jettison one that has proven to be reliable throughout his career (which despite popular opinion, he was/is) just because of one big miss and a bad game on a broken foot...not only is that not done, it would be irresponsible.  Don't look at this with hindsight, but look only at the information that was available at the time the decision had to be made.  

 

Go back and find that thread and see what I was saying then, it's the same thing I'm saying now....if you don't have the free time.

Gano is an 81.9% career kicker.  Resting right there behind Connor Barth and company.

As to the Super Bowl teams not taking a flyer on a kicker off the street?  The Vikings just did that exact thing.  Signing Dan Bailey off of his couch.  Not to mention his cap hit is about half of what Gano's is.

As to how things are accepted or not accepted here?  Who cares, we are fans....it's our job to bitch, moan, support, the team..it's Hurney's job to make the team better.

Not keeping the younger, cheaper kicker was a mistake.  Signing Gano to a top 6 contract was an even bigger mistake.

 

[Woodie]

Just now, Toomers said:

The Pats sent Viniteri packing for Gostowski. The Cowboys just cut the 2nd best PK(%wise) ever. Teams do it all the time. With much better PKs than Gano

Vinatieri was a FA and had played on the franchise tag the year before.  It's not that NE wanted to move on, they just didn't want to pay a 2nd tag cost, and Vinatieri did not want to play in the cold weather anymore.  He preferred either a warm weather or dome team.  

Bailey dealt with back and groin injuries last year and was set to cost a lot, so the team didn't feel the risk was worth the cost.  So, his health was a significant reason for cutting him...that and the fact that his kicking percentages dropped significantly over the last three years.  Basically, he wasn't the same kicker in recent seasons as he used to be, and there was real concern that he might never be that kicker again.

Neither of these issues was relevant for Gano.  Yes, he had the broken foot to end 2016, but that was healed, and expectations were that it would be a non-issue in 2017, which turned out to be true..

[Toomers]

Just now, Woodie said:

Vinatieri was a FA and had played on the franchise tag the year before.  It's not that NE wanted to move on, they just didn't want to pay a 2nd tag cost, and Vinatieri did not want to play in the cold weather anymore.  He preferred either a warm weather or dome team.  

Bailey dealt with back and groin injuries last year and was set to cost a lot, so the team didn't feel the risk was worth the cost.  So, his health was a significant reason for cutting him...that and the fact that his kicking percentages dropped significantly over the last three years.  Basically, he wasn't the same kicker in recent seasons as he used to be, and there was real concern that he might never be that kicker again.

Neither of these issues was relevant for Gano.  Yes, he had the broken foot to end 2016, but that was healed, and expectations were that it would be a non-issue in 2017, which turned out to be true..

Yes they are. The veteran PK was let go for a cheap rookie PK. It’s about value. 

[Woodie]

2 hours ago, thefuzz said:

Go back and find that thread and see what I was saying then, it's the same thing I'm saying now....if you don't have the free time.

Gano is an 81.9% career kicker.  Resting right there behind Connor Barth and company.

As to the Super Bowl teams not taking a flyer on a kicker off the street?  The Vikings just did that exact thing.  Signing Dan Bailey off of his couch.  Not to mention his cap hit is about half of what Gano's is.

As to how things are accepted or not accepted here?  Who cares, we are fans....it's our job to bitch, moan, support, the team..it's Hurney's job to make the team better.

Not keeping the younger, cheaper kicker was a mistake.  Signing Gano to a top 6 contract was an even bigger mistake.

 

It really makes no difference what you were saying then, since it doesn't change the fact that any responsible team would have done the exact same thing we did. 

Now ask yourself why the Vikings signed Bailey.  It certainly wasn't because they had some solid kicker that they decided to move on from.  It was because they had a rookie named Daniel Carlson who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn to save his life.  Completely different situation to us.

 

[Woodie]

1 hour ago, Toomers said:

Yes they are. The veteran PK was let go for a cheap rookie PK. It’s about value. 

Not when you include all of the other salient facts that went into the respective decisions.  One was released for health reasons along with a decrease in production, the other would have required a 2nd franchise tag and wanted to sign elsewhere.  None of those factors came into play here with Gano.

 

[thefuzz]

11 minutes ago, Woodie said:

It really makes no difference what you were saying then, since it doesn't change the fact that any responsible team would have done the exact same thing we did. 

 

Now ask yourself why the Vikings signed Bailey.  It certainly wasn't because they had some solid kicker that they decided to move on from.  It was because they had a rookie named Daniel Carlson who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn to save his life.  Completely different situation to us.

 

It was the wrong move then.  Signing Mare to a long term contract was a stupid move.  Signing Gano to yet another extension was a stupid move.

As to the responsible team nonsense, maybe you mean conservative...or quite possibly scared?

We could be paying Butker 500k this season, and have him under contract long term.  Instead, we are paying Gano 3.5M.

 

Psssst....and Butker hasn't even missed any PAT's.

[Woodie]

7 minutes ago, thefuzz said:

It was the wrong move then.  Signing Mare to a long term contract was a stupid move.  Signing Gano to yet another extension was a stupid move.

As to the responsible team nonsense, maybe you mean conservative...or quite possibly scared?

We could be paying Butker 500k this season, and have him under contract long term.  Instead, we are paying Gano 3.5M.

 

Psssst....and Butker hasn't even missed any PAT's.

I really don't know why you hate Gano so badly.  Sure, he's not the best kicker in the league, but he is pretty darn good...and reliable. 

Conservative, scared?  Not hardly.  We were looking at going to the Super Bowl.  We knew we had Gano going into the draft, but he was coming off a broken foot.  So we drafted a kicker who was good in college, but not even considered to be the best at his position, and some didn't even have him in their top five.  But by the time camp came along, Gano was fully healed and kicked really well in practice, while Butker was pretty inconsistent.  Butker had potential, but that was it, he wasn't displaying that potential on a regular basis in practice, so was never able to jump Gano on the depth chart.

So the responsible thing to do, as would any other team in the league, was keep the player that gave us the best chance to win and make a deep playoff run.  At the time the decision had to be made on who to keep, Butker hadn't shown enough to keep over Gano.   

I'm sure Rivera and Hurney would have loved to get a solid kicker on a rookie contract just as much as you, but Butker hadn't displayed the consistency he showed in KC yet, so they hade to make the smart, performance-based decision.

 

[thefuzz]

1 minute ago, Woodie said:

I really don't know why you hate Gano so badly.  Sure, he's not the best kicker in the league, but he is pretty darn good...and reliable. 

Conservative, scared?  Not hardly.  We were looking at going to the Super Bowl.  We knew we had Gano going into the draft, but he was coming off a broken foot.  So we drafted a kicker who was good in college, but not even considered to be the best at his position, and some didn't even have him in their top five.  But by the time camp came along, Gano was fully healed and kicked really well in practice, while Butker was pretty inconsistent.  Butker had potential, but that was it, he wasn't displaying that potential on a regular basis in practice, so was never able to jump Gano on the depth chart.

So the responsible thing to do, as would any other team in the league, was keep the player that gave us the best chance to win and make a deep playoff run.  At the time the decision had to be made on who to keep, Butker hadn't shown enough to keep over Gano.   

I'm sure Rivera and Hurney would have loved to get a solid kicker on a rookie contract just as much as you, but Butker hadn't displayed the consistency he showed in KC yet, so they hade to make the smart, performance-based decision.

 

I don't hate Gano, hell, I don't think I hate anyone.  That said, the deal was stupid.  Marty and Ron got scared of going young (does this ring any bells), so they went with the vet...the very overpriced vet.

Hurney overpaid when he didn't need to (again, ring any bells).  This is exactly why he was run out of the building during his first stint here by the way.

Gano is an average field goal kickier, that is being paid like one of the all time greats...that is what I hate.

[Toomers]

37 minutes ago, thefuzz said:

I don't hate Gano, hell, I don't think I hate anyone.  That said, the deal was stupid.  Marty and Ron got scared of going young (does this ring any bells), so they went with the vet...the very overpriced vet.

Hurney overpaid when he didn't need to (again, ring any bells).  This is exactly why he was run out of the building during his first stint here by the way.

Gano is an average field goal kickier, that is being paid like one of the all time greats...that is what I hate.

That about.covers it. 

[Woodie]

47 minutes ago, thefuzz said:

I don't hate Gano, hell, I don't think I hate anyone.  That said, the deal was stupid.  Marty and Ron got scared of going young (does this ring any bells), so they went with the vet...the very overpriced vet.

Hurney overpaid when he didn't need to (again, ring any bells).  This is exactly why he was run out of the building during his first stint here by the way.

Gano is an average field goal kickier, that is being paid like one of the all time greats...that is what I hate.

When I said hate, I'm referring to it in football terms, not that you actually hate the man.  I guess better wording would have been a strong abhorrence to him as the kicker of the Panthers. 

I don't totally disagree about signing Gano to the contract we did.  But I do think he is better than average, so don't have a problem with giving him a decent contract.  I would have preferred it to be a little cheaper, but I don't think it was an outrageous contract such as those you are referring to...especially since it was a kickers salary.

My whole point in all of this is that a lot of people have used the hindsight of how Butker has performed in KC as a reason to bash the decision of Rivera and Hurney when that isn't really a fair complaint.  Nobody could have predicted he would have had the season he did. 

The contract aspect is definitely more understandable, it's something we do know as a fact (that we could have cut the cap number by taking on a rookie instead of a vet).  But my position is that I would rather overpay for a solid kicker than risk the season on a kicker you can't count on just to save a couple of million dollars (if Butker had been more consistent in camp, I would probably feel differently about the decision).  Just look at the Browns.  They had the top kicker in Butker's class just cost them two big games to start the year.  Imagine how upset we would all be if Butker's inconsistency had continued and it cost us a couple of games and likely our playoff spot...especially if Gano went on to have the season he did with another team.