Shackling your quarterback

[R0CKnR0LLA]

Rayzor, man it's not straight odds. It's not odds at all. You either have that guy or you don't.

again, how are you going to KNOW unless you try?

Let me see, OTAs, training camp, preseason, working in practice every week with the 1s. Might, just MIGHT give you an idea of where they're at.

[rayzor]

With Delhomme and Warner you had positive tape. You had positve stuff to go on, seasons to go on. They played in Nfl Eurpoe and both won the championship. Granted, thats not huge, but it gives you alot of things to look out and form a better opinon on him. You can look at tape, you can ask the coaches, the players he played with in that time. They looked at all that and thought he was good enough to start. Moore has practises and preseason and just meeting with the coaches everyday. They obviously took all that in to form a better opinon of him, that hes not a better option

Also Jake, as I recall had a pretty decent offseason before the start of the 03 season. In fact, as I recall Bill Cowher wnt up to foax after a presaon game vs pittsburgh, and told him "youd be crazy not to start him"

real game experience >>>> practice.

it's just practice.

practice can give you a good idea of what they can do but the only way to be sure is to give them real game experiences.

i don't trust that fox is handling this right. i don't trust that he is able to look beyond what jake has done in the past and that is skewing everything the does.

anyway...the point is regardless of how poorly jake does, the panthers are 100% behind him. they have jake on a pedestal and it is based on what he has done in the past and his intangibles that he used to have. they are limiting what jake does not so much to keep from losing but to keep jake from looking bad. in their eyes, he is the man and they believe he deserves better than to go out in a rut like he is. the bad thing about that is that it is holding the team back.

it doesn't matter how much potential moore has or how good he could do. the panthers aren't going to look beyond jake.

[AceMan]

Really, who gives a f*** about Moore starting right now. He should be gone as well next year. The main point is Fox and Hurney did nothing at QB when we were clearly struggling at the position.

Also, people overestimate John Fox. Jake played awful this WHOLE training camp and preseason...yet Fox kept him as starter. Could Moore be better than Delhomme? Yes. But it sounds like he doesn't want to start. Any other team would have searched for QB help as soon as they seen Jake struggling in camp. Fox is a prideful fool. His time has come now though.

[MaineManPanther]

real game experience >>>> practice.

it's just practice.

practice can give you a good idea of what they can do but the only way to be sure is to give them real game experiences.

i don't trust that fox is handling this right. i don't trust that he is able to look beyond what jake has done in the past and that is skewing everything the does.

anyway...the point is regardless of how poorly jake does, the panthers are 100% behind him. they have jake on a pedestal and it is based on what he has done in the past and his intangibles that he used to have. they are limiting what jake does not so much to keep from losing but to keep jake from looking bad. in their eyes, he is the man and they believe he deserves better than to go out in a rut like he is. the bad thing about that is that it is holding the team back.

it doesn't matter how much potential moore has or how good he could do. the panthers aren't going to look beyond jake.

When you dont have alot of tape, and practise is the only thing ou got, thewn you better take advantage of it. were not talking about a practise here or there. Were talking about years of it. No practise isnt everything, but its still very important espceially when you have nothing to else to go on.

As far as everything else, that is pure opinon based on really nothing. I strongly diagree that Fox would risk his job, wins, this season all because for his supposed "love" of Jake. If Moore really somehow showed that he could be a better option then Im sure fox would put him.

[rayzor]

Rayzor, man it's not straight odds. It's not odds at all. You either have that guy or you don't.

Let me see, OTAs, training camp, preseason, working in practice every week with the 1s. Might, just MIGHT give you an idea of where they're at.

so we stick with jake through thick or thin without even trying to see if there is anyone else. without even trying to see if someone can do a better job.

awesome.

any other position there would be someone else given a chance.

it is only because it is JAKE that he is being allowed to keep that job.

i just can't understand why so many people are willing to settle for the status quo. why you aren't willing to just see if someone can be better.

you know what you have in jake. that is much more of a known than how moore would be given a real chance to play, and that means time in practice with the 1's, actual game prep, and a couple games to find his groove.

the whole thing is a moot discussion, though. fox is never going to bench jake again. doesn't matter how poorly he does. doesn't matter if it puts his job at risk. he's going to stick with jake because that is all he knows.

the panthers deserve better, imo.

i just want to know at what point would you try and move on? at what point do you decide it's too much?

[rayzor]

When you dont have alot of tape, and practise is the only thing ou got, thewn you better take advantage of it. were not talking about a practise here or there. Were talking about years of it. No practise isnt everything, but its still very important espceially when you have nothing to else to go on.

As far as everything else, that is pure opinon based on really nothing. I strongly diagree that Fox would risk his job, wins, this season all because for his supposed "love" of Jake. If Moore really somehow showed that he could be a better option then Im sure fox would put him.

we are talking about '07 practice without training camp, '08 training camp and then IR, and '09 panthers in panic mode...the whole team sucking in preseason and continuing that suckage into the first couple weeks of the year.

fox and the FO are trying to show that their decision to give jake an extension wasn't a bad idea. benching him would admit that it was.

part of me hopes that they just go ahead and continue this course and ride it right out the door.

they were stupid for giving jake the extension right after that loss and they were stupid for not putting themselves in a better situation with the QB.

if moore truly isn't worth ever being given a chance to start then why the crap is he on the team i the first place. if someone isn't going to help you win then they don't need to be on the team.

they are damned one way or the other and that is fine by me.

get these clowns out of town however it takes and get us someone in here who will put the panthers in the best chance to win consistently, giving us a real QB who you can rely on.

[R0CKnR0LLA]

Nobody is settling for anything and no, I'm not sticking with Jake "through thick or thin". But lord man, how bout we sign YOU to play QB?

Alot of your logic so far has been, "can't be any worse" and "we gotta see what he's got".

That would apply to signing a bum off the street.

I want to retool our passing game but Moore to me isn't the answer. Just a CRAZY IDEA I KNOW.

[MaineManPanther]

so we stick with jake through thick or thin without even trying to see if there is anyone else. without even trying to see if someone can do a better job.

awesome.

any other position there would be someone else given a chance.

it is only because it is JAKE that he is being allowed to keep that job.

i just can't understand why so many people are willing to settle for the status quo. why you aren't willing to just see if someone can be better.

you know what you have in jake. that is much more of a known than how moore would be given a real chance to play, and that means time in practice with the 1's, actual game prep, and a couple games to find his groove.

the whole thing is a moot discussion, though. fox is never going to bench jake again. doesn't matter how poorly he does. doesn't matter if it puts his job at risk. he's going to stick with jake because that is all he knows.

the panthers deserve better, imo.

i just want to know at what point would you try and move on? at what point do you decide it's too much?

Of course at any other posistion. Because no posistion plays as huge a role. There wouldnt be the near negavtive impact switching player at De, rb,wr for a game. Where still in the playoff hunt, its only half the season we can't afford to give Moore " a couple games" to sort himself out.

And agian, you base this whole "Fox is not not starting moore" not because of what fox see in practise or logicallyt believes. But all on some incredible unconditonal love Fox has for delhomme that surpasses the importance of wins, and his job.

I wish we could all love like Fox loves Delhomme , the world would be an amazing place.

[MaineManPanther]

we are talking about '07 practice without training camp, '08 training camp and then IR, and '09 panthers in panic mode...the whole team sucking in preseason and continuing that suckage into the first couple weeks of the year.

fox and the FO are trying to show that their decision to give jake an extension wasn't a bad idea. benching him would admit that it was.

part of me hopes that they just go ahead and continue this course and ride it right out the door.

they were stupid for giving jake the extension right after that loss and they were stupid for not putting themselves in a better situation with the QB.

if moore truly isn't worth ever being given a chance to start then why the crap is he on the team i the first place. if someone isn't going to help you win then they don't need to be on the team.

they are damned one way or the other and that is fine by me.

get these clowns out of town however it takes and get us someone in here who will put the panthers in the best chance to win consistently, giving us a real QB who you can rely on.

The extension was not a bad move, we owed him 10 million before the season. We could not afford to give him especailly with the Peppers situauion. It was for cap relief. Not becasue the wanted him for years and years to come. And even

He's on the team because he's a third string qb who knows our system. Not becuae he's amazingly talented

[rayzor]

how can it get worse? you either win or lose.

in this game plan we could even have carr come in and look not so bad. it is done to protect the team from the mistakes the QB is very likely to make.

we have no shot of doing better than what we are with jake at QB. we know we can't trust him anymore. we know the team doesn't trust him to screw things up.

he has reached his ceiling. i'm just of the opinion that if you know you have someone at QB who is in the downward spiral of his career and you have done everything you can to keep him and you from looking so bad, why not try something a little different that could, potentially, advance you. if you have made it relatively safe for a bad QB to play, you could use any QB, right? why not try and see if someone else might possibly do better. i wouldn't even be opposed to feeley being given a shot as much as i think we were totally retarded for picking him up in the first place.

i just want us to try and get better. i know it won't happen with jake anymore. give someone else a shot. give the team a shot at winning rather than just hanging tight and waiting for the hurricane of disappointment that is this season to get over.

like i said, i know it won't ever happen because they have too much invested in jake.

[MaineManPanther]

how can it get worse? you either win or lose.

in this game plan we could even have carr come in and look not so bad. it is done to protect the team from the mistakes the QB is very likely to make.

we have no shot of doing better than what we are with jake at QB. we know we can't trust him anymore. we know the team doesn't trust him to screw things up.

he has reached his ceiling. i'm just of the opinion that if you know you have someone at QB who is in the downward spiral of his career and you have done everything you can to keep him and you from looking so bad, why not try something a little different that could, potentially, advance you. if you have made it relatively safe for a bad QB to play, you could use any QB, right? why not try and see if someone else might possibly do better. i wouldn't even be opposed to feeley being given a shot as much as i think we were totally retarded for picking him up in the first place.

i just want us to try and get better. i know it won't happen with jake anymore. give someone else a shot. give the team a shot at winning rather than just hanging tight and waiting for the hurricane of disappointment that is this season to get over.

like i said, i know it won't ever happen because they have too much invested in jake.

It can def get worse. Jake is not at some unkown level where its impossible to sink lower.

Weve shown that we can take on great teams with delhomme and still have a good chance at winning. As evidencied by the last two games. With moore we have no idea we cant afford to find that out, when were only allowed one game loss for the playoffs.

[rayzor]

It can def get worse. Jake is not at some unkown level where its impossible to sink lower.

Weve shown that we can take on great teams with delhomme and still have a good chance at winning. As evidencied by the last two games. With moore we have no idea we cant afford to find that out, when were only allowed one game loss for the playoffs.

he's not???? LOL

how many turnovers has he had this year? they had to create a gameplan that prevented him from throwing the ball.

we have shown those things in the past but this isn't the past. this is today. jake isn't the same QB he was even last year. we need to quit pretending he is.

game plan against the panthers is going to be easy the remainder of the year....keep working to shut down the run, the OLine will wear down. the RBs will wear down. just throw everything you can at it because they aren't going to throw the ball. when they do throw it, they will let you know they are. you can drop people back into coverage easily and don't worry about them tricking you, they can't.

we have a very predictable gameplan and a very predictable offense. expect a lot of almosts the rest of the year.

[MaineManPanther]

he's not???? LOL

how many turnovers has he had this year? they had to create a gameplan that prevented him from throwing the ball.

we have shown those things in the past but this isn't the past. this is today. jake isn't the same QB he was even last year. we need to quit pretending he is.

game plan against the panthers is going to be easy the remainder of the year....keep working to shut down the run, the OLine will wear down. the RBs will wear down. just throw everything you can at it because they aren't going to throw the ball. when they do throw it, they will let you know they are. you can drop people back into coverage easily and don't worry about them tricking you, they can't.

we have a very predictable gameplan and a very predictable offense. expect a lot of almosts the rest of the year.

No he's not. It can get much worse. he could have buffalo, or philly performences every game. And you can still have a really bad game without throwing many or any ints. See Jamarcas Russel

Teams have done this same gamplaned to shutdown the run the enitre season. This isnt some new revelation. And yet were the thrid ranked rushing offence this year. And with moore coming in itd be the exact same gameplan.

[rayzor]

No he's not. It can get much worse. he could have buffalo, or philly performences every game. And you can still have a really bad game without throwing many or any ints. See Jamarcas Russel

he is leading the league in INTs, is he not? the gameplan is in prevent mode (as in trying to prevent your QB from totally screwing things up). you shouldn't have to do that if your QB has been playing for this long.

Teams have done this same gamplaned to shutdown the run the enitre season. This isnt some new revelation. And yet were the thrid ranked rushing offence this year. And with moore coming in itd be the exact same gameplan.

i don't care if we are leading the league in rushing. none of that matters if you aren't winning.

and i know we would have the same gameplan with moore....that is the right gameplan to have with new and inexperienced QBs to help them get used to the game. thats exactly what we did with jake when he first started.

we protected him. the panthers were 28th in passing attempts per game with 28.8. meanwhile they were 3rd in rushing attempts per game with 32.6.

since we have things in place to protect a QB from imploding, why not give someone who could be on the upside of his career rather than your long term vet who is obviously on the downside of his career?

if you aren't trying to move forward, you aren't going anywhere. you can only coast so long.