Muhammad is talking too

[CRA]

NO Leinert wouldn't be playing because when he came in he was worse than Warner. In 2006 Warner came in and finished the season when Leinert was hurt. They gave the job back to Leinert in 2007 and after sucking largely for 5 games and untimately getting hurt again, Warner came in and won 5 out of the last 8 games. In 2008 Warner was named the starter and hasn't looked back. They realized that as much as they wanted it, Leinert wasn't the heir apparent similar to Moore.

Agree that the comparisons aren't close because their Matt is a first rounder while our is an undrafted free agent. Moore isn't as good as Leinert so he isn't considered good enough to replace Jake where Leinert was given the chance based on his draft position and college success.

Again, it has already been done before. The proof is in the pudding. Warner is a HOF QB possibly and he has in fact been benched mulitple times for poor play. That is fact.

If Warner put up a string of game like Jake did THIS year....then there is little to support AZ would stick w/ Warner..especially at his age where he will fall off literally overnight one day.

Fox believed Vinny was better than Moore.....Fox was proven wrong when forced to play Matt.

[carolinanimal]

thats what kills me! Way better qbs have been benched for less. But for some reason delhomme is untouchable.

[Mesmer]

snip

Whoah whoah whoah whoah whoah....

That's way too many adjustments for our coaching staff to make in a single game. We never make one, and you expect this many? Curb your expectations my friend.

[rayzor]

There is a third option to this all or nothing black and white thinking so rampant on this board.

Start off like we have been which is run the ball and pass with safe, high percentage pass plays to move the ball and back off the safeties. Evaluate the defense and see what they doing and more importantly evaluate how Jake is doing. We all know that the first quarter almost always tells the tale of the tape. If he comes out hot he usually stays that way. If he comes out cold and inaccurate we may be in for a long day.

Adjust based on what is working and how Jake is doing. For example against new Orleans he was accurate both short and deep so air it out more and let him play. If he wasn't accurate or on arget dial it back and use the shorter to intermediate throws.

Evaluate the defense. Atlanta's corners aren't that good and don't fight well for the ball. They get burned on double moves for example. Take what they are giving us. Throw when they expect us to run and run when they expect us to pass. Mix it up instead of always throwing on third down after we get stuffed on 2 runs in first and second down. Stop being so predictable which would help Jake not have to make plays in obvious situations when that isn't his strong suit.

Finally, figure out how to run plays which pressure the defense and spread them out so one in a while we have a guy wide open instead of always covered by one or two guys. Playcalling can help Jake instead of always trying to protect him.

you realize that this is calling for fox/davidson to do something they aren't particularly comfortable with or used to doing, don't you?

making adjustments isn't exactly their forte.

[panthers55]

Whoah whoah whoah whoah whoah....

That's way too many adjustments for our coaching staff to make in a single game. We never make one, and you expect this many? Curb your expectations my friend.

There is always hope that things will change. Seems the coaches are just as linear and rigid as many of the posters on here. Funny how they criticize Fox and Davidson for having the same characteristics they exhibit in their posts. Present company excluded.

[panthers55]

you realize that this is calling for fox/davidson to do something they aren't particularly comfortable with or used to doing, don't you?

making adjustments isn't exactly their forte.

I guess it depends if they want to win or not. Doing more of the same and expecting different results is one definition of insanity. If they can't then lets hope the next coaches can.

[Mesmer]

I've never been a football coach of any kind.

But just to add this in. I think it would help if we had a coordinator that understands the importance of being in the box. One that sees the whole picture and can identify what's going wrong and adjust.

I know that Davidson obviously has lackeys up in the boxes and relay information down to him, but I just don't see how it's the same.

Fox should be the overall game manager down on the sidelines making big decisions. Positional coaches can be down there to support players and talk to them.

Coordinator's just be chess masters up in the box, separated from the emotion of the sideline, where they can identify nuances in what's going on.

Or maybe I'm just too ridged?

[rayzor]

I guess it depends if they want to win or not. Doing more of the same and expecting different results is one definition of insanity. If they can't then lets hope the next coaches can.

i think they want to win but they want to do it on their own terms and with the plan they had coming in.

i question their willingness to do whatever it takes for them to win.

they go in with a plan and if it works, cool, if not, it is what it is.

yes, hopefully the next coaches will be able to make the necessary adjustments.

[rayzor]

I've never been a football coach of any kind.

But just to add this in. I think it would help if we had a coordinator that understands the importance of being in the box. One that sees the whole picture and can identify what's going wrong and adjust.

I know that Davidson obviously has lackeys up in the boxes and relay information down to him, but I just don't see how it's the same.

Fox should be the overall game manager down on the sidelines making big decisions. Positional coaches can be down there to support players and talk to them.

Coordinator's just be chess masters up in the box, separated from the emotion of the sideline, where they can identify nuances in what's going on.

Or maybe I'm just too ridged?

this makes sense to me.

[prowler2k8]

I wish rep was on

I can't believe he dont understand. Is it really hard to understand

Just wow. Seems like this team is getting dumber and dumber like Fox

Not sure it's a matter of Moose not understanding the situtation (because I believe they do, just not willing to call it out in the media). However, the reactions from Moose and Smitty reveals alot about their frustration with the passing game and overall offensive playcalling. The problem is, Jake is no longer a reliable passer, and the coaches (particulary Fox) trust the backups less than the current starter. Not sure what can be done at this point to fix things, but things are going to hit the fan if it doesn't change soon.

[Mesmer]

i think they want to win but they want to do it on their own terms and with the plan they had coming in.

i question their willingness to do whatever it takes for them to win.

they go in with a plan and if it works, cool, if not, it is what it is.

yes, hopefully the next coaches will be able to make the necessary adjustments.

I'm of the school of thought that the early SB run in 2003 made Fox very confident.. perhaps overconfident in his way.

I know it was exciting, and I wouldn't trade it for anything (except a win of course), but I really think it hurt him as a coach in the long run.

This is why I think it will be better for the Panthers AND Fox if they part ways. He can learn and move on and be a better coach because of it.

[panthers55]

I'm of the school of thought that the early SB run in 2003 made Fox very confident.. perhaps overconfident in his way.

I know it was exciting, and I wouldn't trade it for anything (except a win of course), but I really think it hurt him as a coach in the long run.

This is why I think it will be better for the Panthers AND Fox if they part ways. He can learn and move on and be a better coach because of it.

Don't agree at all. Fox's best coaching job by far was in 2004 when he turned around a 1-7 team beset by injuries and finished 6-2 to barely miss the playoffs.

[CRA]

Don't agree at all. Fox's best coaching job by far was in 2004 when he turned around a 1-7 team beset by injuries and finished 6-2 to barely miss the playoffs.

2004 was a perfect example of making a change too late. The real change was half time of the 49ers game...it was a change in mindset from the coaches after the season appeared done. His adjustment worked....it was too late. Moore coming in 07 was the right move...it came too late and only b/c he was forced. Both in 07 and 04 it was obvious prior to the changs that it should have been done weeks earlier. Two bad seasons that could have been much better if Fox didn't have his huge flaws.

[panthers55]

2004 was a perfect example of making a change too late. The real change was half time of the 49ers game...it was a change in mindset from the coaches after the season appeared done. His adjustment worked....it was too late. Moore coming in 07 was the right move...it came too late and only b/c he was forced. Both in 07 and 04 it was obvious prior to the changs that it should have been done weeks earlier. Two bad seasons that could have been much better if Fox didn't have his huge flaws.

Where do you get your ideas from. How was 2004 a example of too late change. We had guys dropping like flys, had to make huge adjustments every week and Fox had a consistent montra that no one was going to save them so they had to save themselves and backups had to deliver. Goings was the catalyst that year but it was hardly too late. He was the third stringer and got in based on Davis and Foster both going on IR.

As for 2007 we have plowed this ground ad nauseum so i will only summarize. Moore couldn't come in sooner he didn't know the playbook, had never played professional ball and missed all our training camp and preseason. Plus he was the third stringer given jake started and Carr was the backup. He got little to no work with the team let alone the first teamers as is the case on all teams. Carr got hurt and we brought in Vinny because Moore wasn't ready. When Carr was ineffective and Vinny couldn't stay healthy the coaches did a marvelous job of getting Moore ready in less than 2 weeks and he looked good with a very pared down scheme. The fact that he hasn't looked nearly as good since then with more coaching and work suggests how good a job they did getting him ready.

Fox, Davidson and McCoy should be lauded for the great job they did rather than criticized for waiting too long which is patently ridiculous to contend.