Do you really think the goal of this season is to win?

[Sword]

this isn't a youth movement in the eyes that we are just cutting guys because they are old...no the guys behind them are better(the only one i'm not sure about is Fiametta*), they just happen to be younger then the old vets they let go..

*those who say Fox would rather put in Sutton in that Saints game at FB then Fiametta..he had a concussion that week and was not even able to play..he's still a question mark but it's not because of that to me.

[PantherBob]

I disagree. Any good coach knows that in order to reach your goal you first need to visualize it and embrace the possibility. Do you think that a reasonable goal for us in 2003 was to reach the Superbowl after we went 7-9 in 2002 under Fox? How about the Jets last year? They almost made it. I guarantee Ryan had that as his goal. It is the goal of every team or they don't belong in the NFL. Same with their coaches and FO.

Actually I remember there being a huge buzz about a playoff run before 2003 started after we signed Stephen Davis, Jake Delhomme, Ricky Proehl, etc especially after they had already retooled the #2 defense the year before. I dont think many people would have said super bowl but playoffs was definitely a goal. The panthers turned out to be better than even they thought they would be. If this years team turns out the same way then the bar would obviously be raised higher.

The Jets already had a great defense and running game in place. I actually predicted them to be the 2009 version of the falcons making the playoffs with a rookie QB. Any time a team gets to the playoffs the goals obviously become high.

[panthers55]

Actually I remember there being a huge buzz about a playoff run before 2003 started after we signed Stephen Davis, Jake Delhomme, Ricky Proehl, etc especially after they had already retooled the #2 defense the year before. I dont think many people would have said super bowl but playoffs was definitely a goal. The panthers turned out to be better than even they thought they would be. If this years team turns out the same way then the bar would obviously be raised higher.

The Jets already had a great defense and running game in place. I actually predicted them to be the 2009 version of the falcons making the playoffs with a rookie QB. Any time a team gets to the playoffs the goals obviously become high.

You might have been buzzed but there wasn't much of a playoff buzz in the media about the Panthers. At that point our quarterback was Rodney Peete, Davis and Proehl were considered over the hill, Smith was still a returner and the architect of that defense was the headcoach of the Jaguars.

JUst like in 2008 when there wasn't that much of a buzz either.

The Jets in 2008 were 16th in defense and 9th in rushing just ahead of the mightly washington Redskins. Neither were great at all. They didn't have Favre anymore, had a new coach and a rookie quarterback. Most folks picked them to be 3rd in the division behind New England and Miami.

You seem to making this stuff up as you go along.

[PantherBob]

You might have been buzzed but there wasn't much of a playoff buzz in the media about the Panthers. At that point our quarterback was Rodney Peete, Davis and Proehl were considered over the hill, Smith was still a returner and the architect of that defense was the headcoach of the Jaguars.

JUst like in 2008 when there wasn't that much of a buzz either.

The Jets in 2008 were 16th in defense and 9th in rushing just ahead of the mightly washington Redskins. Neither were great at all. They didn't have Favre anymore, had a new coach and a rookie quarterback. Most folks picked them to be 3rd in the division behind New England and Miami.

You seem to making this stuff up as you go along.

I assume you either werent living in Charlotte in 2003 or you didnt listen to local talk shows. There was TONS of talk about the panthers making a playoff run that year especially after Stephen Davis had been signed. Davis wasnt being used in Washington because they had Steve Spurrier trying to do his fun and gun crap. He was still a very good player and everyone knew it (except for you I guess) Steve Smith was already the starting WR in 2002 and looked very good. So you're a year off. If you remember there was the big QB competition between Pete, Jake, and Wienke. There was plenty of optimisim after the offseason they had in free agency and upgrading the offensive line in the draft eispecially when we already had a good defense in place (despite losing Del Rio)

Nope, sorry wasnt making anything up. Thomas Jones was a top 5 running back in 2008 and rushed for over 1300 yards plus they already had a very strong offensive line in place. The running game was definitely there and so was the defense. Remember they added Bart Scott and Calvin Pace in the offseason. Dont care where the media predicted them to finish. I predicted them in the playoffs. Sorry

[panthers55]

I assume you either werent living in Charlotte in 2003 or you didnt listen to local talk shows. There was TONS of talk about the panthers making a playoff run that year especially after Stephen Davis had been signed. Davis wasnt being used in Washington because they had Steve Spurrier trying to do his fun and gun crap. He was still a very good player and everyone knew it (except for you I guess) Steve Smith was already the starting WR in 2002 and looked very good. So you're a year off. If you remember there was the big QB competition between Pete, Jake, and Wienke. There was plenty of optimisim after the offseason they had in free agency and upgrading the offensive line in the draft eispecially when we already had a good defense in place (despite losing Del Rio)

Nope, sorry wasnt making anything up. Thomas Jones was a top 5 running back in 2008 and rushed for over 1300 yards plus they already had a very strong offensive line in place. The running game was definitely there and so was the defense. Remember they added Bart Scott and Calvin Pace in the offseason. Dont care where the media predicted them to finish. I predicted them in the playoffs. Sorry

I have lived in charlotte since 1994 and a Panthers fan since the beginning. And no I don't remember much of a buzz at all. What about the rest of you guys. Am I getting alzheimers or is PantherBob making this stuff up??

Again you are full of it about our players- lets review. Davis in 2002 at Washington only played in 12 games due to injury and had 820 yards on 207 carries for only 4 yards a carry and 7 TDs. He has 1 100 yard game that year. compare that to 2001 where he had 6. People were wispering he was over the hill much like people are now saying about Clinton Portis. Look he only had one good year here and everyone was saying he resurreccted his career. Not someting you say to a guy who is supposed that great or young. You do know the average lifespan for a running back is 3 years right???

And Smith started 13 games in 2002 and had a total of 54 catches and 872 yards with only 3 Tds. He had 9 less catches than Moose and less TDs than Wesley Walls. Smith was improved over 2001 but wasn't a household name until 2003. and honestly the passing game was pretty poor in 2002. IN 2005 Smitty had as many TDs as the passing offense had in all of 2002 combined.

Jake was a complete unknown and weinke was famous for being 1-15. Peete was likeable but hardly someone who we felt was a playoff quarterback. Our offense in 2002 was anemic we scored a total of 26 Tds- that is less than 14 points a game. Get real

And no when we brought on a nobody DC in Trgovac the biggest fear was that our defense was good because of Del Rio and once he left we would return to our ways. Peppers was considered an embarrassment after beinf suspended for 4 games for using an illegal substance.

Again Jones was considered a good runner but it is nothing compared to our team where there are several weapons. 9th in rushing isn't great it is average. And their defense was in the bottom half of the league. After they tanked at the end of the season there was a clear idea that they were rebuilding , not a playoff team right away.

And yeah you are embellishing the facts to the point of reduced credibility. A nice way of saying you are making it up.

[PantherBob]

I have lived in charlotte since 1994 and a Panthers fan since the beginning. And no I don't remember much of a buzz at all. What about the rest of you guys. Am I getting alzheimers or is PantherBob making this stuff up??

Again you are full of it about our players- lets review. Davis in 2002 at Washington only played in 12 games due to injury and had 820 yards on 207 carries for only 4 yards a carry and 7 TDs. He has 1 100 yard game that year. compare that to 2001 where he had 6. People were wispering he was over the hill much like people are now saying about Clinton Portis. Look he only had one good year here and everyone was saying he resurreccted his career. Not someting you say to a guy who is supposed that great or young. You do know the average lifespan for a running back is 3 years right???

And Smith started 13 games in 2002 and had a total of 54 catches and 872 yards with only 3 Tds. He had 9 less catches than Moose and less TDs than Wesley Walls. Smith was improved over 2001 but wasn't a household name until 2003. and honestly the passing game was pretty poor in 2002. IN 2005 Smitty had as many TDs as the passing offense had in all of 2002 combined.

Jake was a complete unknown and weinke was famous for being 1-15. Peete was likeable but hardly someone who we felt was a playoff quarterback. Our offense in 2002 was anemic we scored a total of 26 Tds- that is less than 14 points a game. Get real

And no when we brought on a nobody DC in Trgovac the biggest fear was that our defense was good because of Del Rio and once he left we would return to our ways. Peppers was considered an embarrassment after beinf suspended for 4 games for using an illegal substance.

Again Jones was considered a good runner but it is nothing compared to our team where there are several weapons. 9th in rushing isn't great it is average. And their defense was in the bottom half of the league. After they tanked at the end of the season there was a clear idea that they were rebuilding , not a playoff team right away.

And yeah you are embellishing the facts to the point of reduced credibility. A nice way of saying you are making it up.

LOL You seem like one of those hard headed people that is too embarrassed about being wrong about anything. Its ok, everyone is allowed to be wrong every now and then. Yes even you!

I used to listen to WFNZ relgiously (not anymore) back in 2003 and there was tons of talk about how the panthers finished #2 in total defense, how they won 4 out of their last 5 games including knocking the saints out of the playoff contention in the finale. There was also lots of talk about how they improved the offense in the draft free agency. Mike Minter was also quoted before the season as saying "it just feels like something special is about to happen". There was also lots of optimism on the old panthers.com forum too. Dont know where you were but there was definitely a buzz around the city. Again, it was a playoff buzz not a super bowl one.

Stephen Davis was a two time pro bowler in Washington was he not? yeah he had his injury issues but he was still regarded as a good player. S. Smith had shown a ton of promise in his one year as a starter. I dont know many recievers that become house hold names in their first season as a starter do you? Moose was still in his prime and regarded as the #1 receiver before the season started anyway.

The jets still had a top 10 rushing attack in 2008 and their defense was only going to get better with an agressive defensive coach, Bart Scott, Calvin Pace, Kris Jenkins, etc etc. Lots of people knew their defense would be pretty good. The only thing people had reservations about was starting a rookie QB.

Like I said, dont get your panties in a bunch because you were wrong. it happens to even the best of us.

[ed bell]

2003 evolved...Don't remember any "Super Bowl" buzz before Week 1.

[ed bell]

BTW, I see that we are talkin' Superbowl, Deep playoff run, playoff run and playoffs....

[God]

This sounds cliche but the Panthers are the best when they fly under the radar. I would rather people have us going 5-11 than 11-5.

[OnlyPantherFaninMaine]

I just don't buy the whole rebuilding season argument. You say... "winning in the future is the main goal." I think the fact is, every team makes that a goal every year as best they can. Economics have the ability to change that. And yes, I think young guys will have to step up and play better than expected. However, we have a core of extremely talented players at nearly every crucial position to be playoff contender or division champion.

My outlook on the matter: I think over the span of the last 3-5 years Panthers fan in general have been gradually wanting change and the John Fox loyalty to reside. I just don't think they expected this "new look of the Panthers" to come about so quickly. I for one, am anticipating this season more so than I have been for a while now. I am going to love watching things pan out because I got a hunch this team could be onto something special.

It's time to embrace it, afterall, you would be surprised at the difference a fan base loyal and optimistic can make on a young group of players in the locker room. I wish each player the best and really believe that our team is making this shift for the better. That being said, I still hold the Panthers to my standards and think winning the NFC South every years is a possibility. More so now than ever.

[panthers55]

LOL You seem like one of those hard headed people that is too embarrassed about being wrong about anything. Its ok, everyone is allowed to be wrong every now and then. Yes even you!

I used to listen to WFNZ relgiously (not anymore) back in 2003 and there was tons of talk about how the panthers finished #2 in total defense, how they won 4 out of their last 5 games including knocking the saints out of the playoff contention in the finale. There was also lots of talk about how they improved the offense in the draft free agency. Mike Minter was also quoted before the season as saying "it just feels like something special is about to happen". There was also lots of optimism on the old panthers.com forum too. Dont know where you were but there was definitely a buzz around the city. Again, it was a playoff buzz not a super bowl one.

Stephen Davis was a two time pro bowler in Washington was he not? yeah he had his injury issues but he was still regarded as a good player. S. Smith had shown a ton of promise in his one year as a starter. I dont know many recievers that become house hold names in their first season as a starter do you? Moose was still in his prime and regarded as the #1 receiver before the season started anyway.

The jets still had a top 10 rushing attack in 2008 and their defense was only going to get better with an agressive defensive coach, Bart Scott, Calvin Pace, Kris Jenkins, etc etc. Lots of people knew their defense would be pretty good. The only thing people had reservations about was starting a rookie QB.

Like I said, dont get your panties in a bunch because you were wrong. it happens to even the best of us.

And you are obviously one of those people who keep saying the same thing in an attempt to get in the last word. And support your statement with few facts and little substantiation but your own recollection.

I already said that davis had several good years in Washington and yes he was a 2 time probowler. But when we picked him up he was coming off an injury and put up pedestrian numbers. The thought was that he was done.

Look Delhomme was a pro-bowl quarterback- but he is not being touted as a reason for Cleveland to go to the playoffs this year. LT going to the Jets this year is being touted by many as a mistake when they traded Jones. It doesn't matter that he was a multi probowler before. If they weren't already a playoff team he wouldnt be the reason they are suddenly going to be better.

And you prove my point with Smitty. You were the one saying that he was a big reason we were being touted as a playoff team in 2003. I pointed out he was okay at that point but hadn't received much hype at all.

As for the Jets they were not even the best running team in their division and their defense was in the bottom half of the league behind every team in their division. Sure with Ryan going there folks thought they might be better but it was the offense that was the problem once Favre left. In 2008 they were third in the division in offense and they were considered at least one or two years away from being a playoff team given who else was in their division and the competition.

Keep trying to convince everyone you are right with your opinions and recollections. I will continue to stick to the facts and stats. Feel free to get in the last word though. Maybe you could try mixing in some facts to your visit down your own personal memory lane.

Great story, Bro...............

[Udogg]

I swear its amazing how many sensitive people we have on this forum. I think you guys are completly missing the OPs point. Hes saying this season is more about evaluating talent than it is about trying to win championships/divisions/etc. If they make the playoffs GREAT but that would only be a bonus because thats not the real goal. In years past the teams goal was to win the super bowl. When a team says they're going in a youth movement they are telling you in advanced that this a rebuilding season. Thats not being negative or being an "offseason hater" its just reality.

I see where you are coming from. I understood where the OP was going. But short of Peppers who wasn't resigning, and arguably Hoov, I don't see much of a downgrade if any at the positions that are changing. In fact it could be argued that it's almost across the board upgrades. Rebuilding would be trading one of RB's for multiple picks, totally rebuilding the both sides of the ball, ie the seahawks or KC. Davis is still here, Beason, Double Trouble, The offensive line, The DE's not named Julius Peppers, The secondary minus Chris Harris and of course minus the Human Turnover Machine Jake Delhomme. Saying people aren't understanding what a rebuilding season is yet ignoring the fact that the "core" is still here is naive imo. I mean the Steelers/Patriots/Eagles do this every year, yet no one is saying they are rebuilding. If Moore loses to Claussen in TC, then all the better for us. Both are better than Jake at the moment(short of miraculous comeback in Cleveland).

[Urrymonster]

I really really really really hope Fox is extended.

Do I think he is the greatest HC around? Nope, up until this off-season I felt it was the best time for him to move on.

HOWEVER, with what has happened this off-season not bringing him back will completely ruin everything that has been done. The vast majority of these players have been hand picked and drafted to play the specific system that Fox n co want. The purge of older guys is great, but if a new HC comes in and dislikes plenty of the young guys in their place, then we will simply have to get even MORE vets to make up for the purge of the young guys who no longer fit the mould.

How many times has a new FO and taken a liking to the new QB drafted?

How many times has a new FO come in and employed the same system?

How many times do you see a new FO come in and bring 'their' players?

If we do have a change over of coaches after this season, then this whole process could of been completely pointless. More importantly we could see many of the young guys who have not had time to show their stuff get jettisoned in favour of the new coaches 'guys', simply because they have proven nothing. There is a ridiculous amount of potential on this roster, to throw it away now would be crazy.

If Fox is not here next year, and looking at the way some viewed Clausen, we could see the next FO draft a QB early simply because Clausen is not 'their guy'. Clausen might not ever get a proper chance to play here...

[SCP]

Ok I've come to accept the fact the Panthers are in rebuilding mode, anyone who says otherwise is just clinging on. Of course the panther's are going to try and win, but is that the main goal for them? As I see it the main goal is to just weed anyone out who doesn't pan out. Also called a 'throw away' season, which is a stupid label because it can do much more than actually winning for the right team.

The FO obviously knows they are up against some pretty big odds going into this season and trying to go to far, not saying it can't be done, but they can't honestly think than any reasonable and non-idiot fan is convinced they are going into 2010 with the playoffs/super bowl on their mind...but more of a , well if it happens even better type feeling...and yet I still buy season tickets...

Of course the plan is to win games.

9-7 or 10-6 I say.

I'm kind of tired of these kind of threads OP, but your avatar is f*cking sweet.