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Go check what Baker did on 3rd down with Canales in Tampa. He bailed a very meh offense out that season going downfield on 3rd down. Like said, there is a deep dive thread somewhere about every stop. There are some deep dive articles that go into the magic Baker had to pull on 3rd down that season because the O actually sucked. Which got talked about when Canales was hired (that the O wasn't actually good, Baker was on big downs). Geno was absurd downfield for his comeback (think he lead the NFL in deep shots that season and we know Wilson was the king of the f you deep ball) Canales needs to be paired w/ a playmaker at QB. Just like every variant of the offenses he worked on needed to be to in order to make up for meh O schemes and meh overall playcalling.

Exactly. Just because you are part of the staff of a Head Coach doesn't make you an immediate replica of that coach once you branch out on your own.

Valid, and throw in that what Wilson and Smith did is not out of the ordinary for a WCO

Darnold was pretty bad until last year. He implodes mentally, its just what he does. To this day I dont have a problem with letting him walk. Baker is a bit different. He was an ass in Cleveland and they couldnt deal with his poo, but he at least had talent and went to the playoffs. So you know he could play at least. There were different stories coming out from the time he got here, competing with Sam and then the practice team release fiasco. Both good and bad. Some say he was a good teammate others say he bitched behind the scenes. From what it appears his wife has worked with him and he calmed down and his play has reflected that. Tampa loves him. So if we were going to keep one it probably should have been him but man he was really bad for us. But to his defense he didnt get the first team reps until late into camp. In obvious hindsight we should have signed Baker cheap, drafted a dude and let the cards play out, but you know the rest of the story and now we are going to have to watch bryce for 2 more years

Again his one year calling plays happened to be Baker's lowest YPA not counting his split year hear. That tells me he was less aggressive with a QB who likes to be aggressive. We have that and almost 2 full years of Bryce Ball here in Carolina. He will take some deeps shots as most offenses have to in order to keep the defense honest. Quick passes and hopeful YAC. I'll give you one guess to which year Rachaad White had the most receptions as TB's RB? Remember the first thing he wanted to do here is focus on how quickly he wanted to get the ball out. That's part of his recipe to help QBs and help his OL. Run the ball, quick passes to hopefully players in space, sprinkle in a little PA. So yeah you can look at some coaches he learned under and speculate, but I am telling you what he literally is doing and has done as a play caller. Offenses that were and are 100% his baby.

I mean....Darnold has many, many years of producing left to be Cousins.

Ah, you mean the ol "line the entire defense up near the marker" 3rd down play??? There is no possible way that could fail!

that's why I reference the entire specific tree Canales came up in and what made the offenses work at each point in time. You have 3 offenses. Wilson, Geno and Baker. They all have shared the same traits that made them work. All the offenses have been relatively uncreative (which Canales essentially conceded he wasn't bringing rocket science to Carolina) and have been dependent on having an aggressive QB downfield to essentially provide the balance to a predictable and boring offensive scheme. Deep dive was done into the passing game of all those dudes/offenses before the Bryce/Canales era ever kicked off. Canales specific tree has always been dependent on the downfield ball at every stop. It hasn't worked at any point without QB that naturally is aggressive downfield and helps bail the O out.

Darnold folds when it's put on him. He is fine when the team carries him. Here they put it on the QBs 3 times in 3 years while no one could carry Rhule's mess of a nonexistent NFL level program. I would personally take Cousins because he was a better version of Darnold in every way except pay levels. Baker was a playoff QB his rookie year and another/final desperation move for a crew failing out of the NFL. He was the best of the 3 and it was never close. The context matters. Wilks had the truely good QB running scout team DE spouting crap like 'it's not my call' as an interim HC. I don't remember one person that didn't have Tepper and Rhule issues way ahead of the QBs problems by that time. Teddy got it worse but when Sam showed up the pattern became clear to most. No way to un-fug what those people did in those 3 years. Teddy was never going to be a savior they needed, they didn't use Sam as a bridge QB like they should have and they brought the best one into the worst situation steeped in desperation and incompetence in a year 3 that should never have happened. None were ever going to workout here given how the team was run, it was all built to fail. The people that didn't want them were right, maybe not for the correct reasons but that depends on the who, and the team proceeded to prove it.

Evero is becoming Eric Washington levels of bad. It's been over 7 years, and I still can't figure out what Eric Washington was trying to accomplish on this play.

Yeah, I know you want to do your thing here. Please point out where in Canales’ journey before arriving here…..his offensive tree worked without the style QB pointed out? I’ll wait. You wanting to nitpicking broad offenses doesn’t change what I said. We are specifically talking about the Canales tree/variant and Canales’ boring and unimaginative offense (his words too)…..needs a QB (just like everywhere else he has been) to put it over the the top and bail it outs

There is video somewhere of Tillis commenting on Wharton and knowing him in KC. Probably on the team site in one of those blueprint things or the like.

I don’t think Cam isn’t retiring because he is waiting for an opportunity to comeback. That wouldn’t stop you. Think he has verbally conceded he is done. I think Cam isn’t retiring so he can always use that in HOF talk. Never make himself even eligible. Never give people a means to say no.

I think people look too heavily to where he was and not what he did in the one season he actually was an OC. Yes, Russell Wilson and Geno Smith were launching long bombs in Seattle but he was just a positional coach. Those weren't his offenses.

Funny how a lot of people here did not want either of those guys when they were here, but the same people are upset that we let them leave. Easy to look back and criticize. Honestly Darnold is reminding me of Cousins. Great in the regular season, but when the pressure is on he reverts back to happy feet and int's. We will see how he does if they make the playoffs. Baker seems to have more dog in him.

Yep. His OCs back in his Seattle days were guys like Darrell Bevell, Brian Schottenheimer and Shane Waldron.

I need to go back and review this and the other thread

Give me Aho tomorrow

DC was only full an OC one year and it was with the Bucs on Baker's "bounce back year." That year Baker posted his lowest average yards per attempt outside the the year he played here/LAR at 7.1. This is with Evans and Godwin as his WRs too. When DC left the very next year he went from 7.1 to 7.9. DC does test the deep ball periodically but so far his offenses rely heavily on quick pass first reads. He does try to run to setup the pass, but he is also too quick to abandon the run. He is honestly still very green as a play caller much less one that is also a HC.

You're not demonstrating a very good grasp of the offensive principles here. Coryell: combine power run game with deep downfield passing to keep the box from being stacked underneath WCO: pitch and catch / extended handoffs; throw short to skill players and let them get yards after catch; backs are mostly fast, shifty types but it's good to have a power runner for short yardage and goal line situations; occasional downfield chucks to back the defense off the line but they're not bread and butter

I've primarily looked at the offensive side of things, likely because that's where most of the discussion is centered. Given there's a pretty solid chance we move on from Evero next season, I probably should pay more attention to the other side of the ball.

Every offense Canales has grown up in or ran before being employed here has required a QB with an aggressive downfield nature to them to function properly. There are no exceptions to that....people try to build one here. That is not Bryce's style. and his bland and boring O here requires the same thing here and doesn't have it at the QB spot

Pretty much... Typical WCOs do take occasional deep shots but they're not as reliant on them as a traditional Coryell style would be. Reid and NcNabb back in Philly certainly took shots downfield (and NcNabb was capable) but it definitely wasn't Coryell style.

I'd leave out the stats but agree outside of that. I reference Newton here because there was a long running debate here about tying the team's win-loss record to him.