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Just to clarify: I'm not arguing that height or footwork can't affect QB play. I'm asking how those concerns translate into measurable, consistent outcomes. That’s the standard we should be applying to all QBs, not just Bryce. If height is such a limitation, then we'd expect to see elevated batted passes or poor pressure evasion. Yet none of that shows up in the data. Bryce was one of the lowest in the league for batted passes and his 16.9 pressure-to-sack ratio is good enough for 9th out of all QBs with 300+ dropbacks. So if you believe footwork tied to height is a meaningful issue, what metric shows that because two that would aren't doing so? This isn't about denying flaws. It's about applying fair, consistent standards because otherwise we’re not evaluating performance which means that it's not analysis taking place... it's just going off of the vibes that somebody has consciously decided on. Citing one red zone play you remember doesn't provide that consistent standard. I don't say that to dismiss your memory, but to emphasize that anecdotal evidence (especially from an avowed skeptic) shouldn’t carry more weight than consistent tape or analytics. For example, there was recently dissonance over Bryce's deep ball accuracy where it was implied that he was inaccurate throwing 20+ yards. Yet, the data and film show otherwise. And I unfortunately have to still ask since you won't directly answer: What specific metrics do you believe matter when evaluating whether a QB is top-10? You've mentioned YPA and passing yards per game, and that's fair. If that's what you're prioritizing, then let's call that your criteria but clarity matters because it prevents moving goalposts when the data doesn’t match one's expectations. I appreciate the response and hope that your holiday weekend goes well also.

Me too. I got other things I can do. Tie it up 2-2 and I will be back, but Im tired of watching us get swept.

Svechnikov and I'm voting cause I'm pissed.

He had games where he was a top 10 QB that week, vs Saints, Falcons, Eagles, Chiefs, Bucs. Amazing performances that I think show what he can do consistently. He must play with confidence to overcome physical limitations where someone like Cam can struggle all game and then win the game at the end by running someone over. Bryce won’t be that and I am fine with it, it’s time for us to move on to the new era. It’s been 5 long years.

We both know there's more that goes into batted passes than just the height of the QB. Most people here have readily acknowledged this and there were numerous discussions about it before we drafted Young. But if you are presenting a POV that Bryce's height hasn't tied to issues with his footwork then there's nothing anyone is going to be able to say to sway you and you know this. Even beyond the footwork I recall a redzone play where Bryce couldn't see around his right tackle at all where a receiver was waiting practically alone in the end zone for a touchdown. There are real world circumstances that are going to show up over the course of the upcoming season and it's up to Bryce and Dave Canales to make adjustments and do anything they can to mitigate negative instances and yes that begins with Bryce's footwork again. Thanks for your time. Have a nice weekend.

I'm arguing that should those supposed deficiencies, like height or pocket footwork, be as consequential as you and others have claimed, then there would be a clear, observable impact in the data. That's not unreasonable. For example, batted passes are often used as a size-related concern (see: Baker Mayfield), yet Bryce ranked among the lowest in deflections at the line. If his stature is such a limitation, why isn't it showing up there? Or are you suggesting that's why his passing yards fall short of your expectations? If the latter, I would hope that you're not discounting yards left on the field due to drops (of which he led the league in). Also, asking for specific, measurable benchmarks isn't aggression... it's accountability. If that feels uncomfortable, it might be worth reflecting on how much of your anti-Bryce argument is grounded in subjective perception rather than objective metrics. So, again: do you have any specific KPIs beyond total passing yardage, height, and weight that you consider relevant to evaluating whether a QB is top-10? If you want to add YPA and passing yards per game to those metrics, that's fair, just be clear about it. But let's not pretend that asking for clarity is some kind of provocation. I'm simply trying to understand the actual criteria... not just the vibes.

Jackson actually played quite well for a #2 CB #54 in PFF coverage ratings 12 pass break ups solid in run defense..... Hes gonna be targeted just because Jacyee IS being avoided.

Yeah, these arguments are getting twisted to the point that it's just an airing of old grievances for the 100th time. No matter what happened in the past, no matter what the "trajectory" is, Bryce has to show why he was a number 1 overall draft pick. If people didn't like Cam and what he did for us at QB, I hate to see what poor Bryce is gonna get if he doesn't reach Manning-esque heights.

I would say the extremes from both camps in these conversations have to do with the blurring of the fact Bryce is a first overall pick and the expectations for that draft slot fair or not far exceed just being a top 20-25 starter amongst your peers. Regardless. All logical Panthers fans want him to be the answer.

The offseason is always when hope springs eternal. If you look past that, you can see a very bad roster with a lot more questions than definitive answers. Let's hope we get a lot of those right, because I think we are a lot closer to another impatient Tepper reset than we probably think.

These arguments are getting more and more disingenuous from both the pro and anti Bryce crowd. Bryce looked very good for stretches down the final 8 games. He finally showed glimpses of the guy that was projected as a top QB pick in the draft. Bryce also didn't look like a top 10 NFL QB. I think we are so far removed from Prime Cam that we forget what an elite QB looks like. I could tell that when people were losing their minds and simping for Sam Darnold. This season needs to finally showcase Bryce as a franchise talent. If that doesn't happen, it's time to pivot. There are very few recent examples of QB's struggling or being a mixed bag through the first three seasons of starting and then suddenly becoming frachise caliber players.

See that's the thing what I saw in game 2 was so embarrassing id rather they could just forfeit

Are you arguing that his height deficiencies and footwork within the pocket have not been a present issue clearly seen on his game tape particularly in the games he struggled in? Because that's simply denying what everyone in this fanbase who have watched the games have seen. It's interesting how hardline BY fans here quickly and effortlessly pivot from whailing about being victimized to becoming the aggressor and hurling out allegations of bias and hatred. And at the end of the day while Bryce Young clearly improved significantly from the first two games of the season the reality of the situation is he still finished 42nd in yards per pass attempt behind Mac Jones and tied with Caleb Williams and 38th in passing yards per game behind the likes of Gardner Minshew Aidan O'Connell Drake Maye and Will Levis. Furthermore it took Bryce Young 23 games to surpass Panthers legend Kyle Allen's 13 games worth of passing yardage in 2019. So if your argument is he became a head and shoulders better passer over the course of the second half of the season the reality is we're still waiting to see that growth this season. And there is nothing controversial or vitriolic about saying so from the mind of a rational observer.

Cam regularly threw for less than 200 yards and nobody questioned he was elite. He averaged 219 yds per game for his career. You seem to be way too hung up on yards as a stat. By that definition Jameis Winston should have been MVP by now.

So... what metrics for production do you believe display these issues/limitations best? Are we only using total passing yards, height, and weight thresholds? If so, then what are those thresholds?

I mean as far as his size goes it's all over his tape bouncing up and down on his toes in and around the pocket trying to see the field and defenses know this as well as we do but if folks here want to live in never never land and pretend it's not a thing that's their prerogative. Even our head coach has made it a key focal point to get his footwork under control. But it's still something Bryce is going to be tested on early and often no matter how many keystrokes anyone here commits to the narrative it isn't an issue.

It speaks volumes that when asked to define a clear performance threshold the responses instead fixate on Bryce's size. It reinforces what’s been clear for a while now... that for some, it has never been nor will it ever be about production. Any struggles will always be chalked up to his frame, and any strong play will be downplayed or disqualified via highly mobile goalposts.

It is hard not to feel hopeless. There is some hope buried behind a hopeless wall but the hopeless wall is thick. Going off of the last two games I don’t see how we win. Team looked utterly defeated on Thursday, kinda like the Leafs did when the Panthers tied the series 2-2, and we all know how that ended. I hope for the best. I will at least turn on the game for a little while.

His size will always limit him. Do t kid yourself

When a team has EXPECTATIONS you have to show them that your fandom and praise is EARNED. People would be mad if the they lost two one goal competitive games like 2023 but they wouldn't have gotten booed out of the building because the effort and competitiveness would be there but to lose in THAT fashion at home with your entire top line going free lance and saying fug this yeahhh.

Well with back to back road games to open the season again we really can't afford a "slow start" at least not for the psyche of the fanbase that is already at rock bottom from years of losing. I think that will depend on our approach to preseason this go around. But I do agree the makings of a culture change could be big for us. At the same time we heard talk of this last year and then we got the doors blown off multiple times. I can agree with you it's best to try to maintain perspective until we get closer to the midway point of the season. The main things I want to see early on even if we aren't necessarily winning is spark and toughness from the offense and defense and at least keeping games close.

First goal hmmm im going with Verhague

Im not watching Boycott in effect. Lol Im guessing it will he without Jarvis and lord knows Rods gonna play Morrow again if chatty can't go

It's actually interesting you mention Richardson because I've seen it suggested here Bryce will have 500 or more rushing yards and 5-10 rushing touchdowns this year. And if big Anthony Richardson can get hurt carrying the rock what's that tell you about the practicality of thinking Bryce won't?

I mean, I get why the media and some NFL and Carolina fans are saying that we don't have a real chance, but as many Huddlers should know, we won't know what we really have in this team until probably late September or early October at the earliest. And I'm not trying to be a homer, I'm just looking at things historically. Obviously I'm also looking at Bryce's "palatable" improvement the last half of last season (including being the catalyst for hanging with and nearly beating the Super Bowl participants), and the new additions that we've acquired overall. I'm also looking at the beginnings of a culture change--even if perceptibly subtle--to some degree indeed may take a foothold if things start falling the right way. But, overall, I'm still cognizant of the realization that things could just go south and that perhaps that Bryce could revert and flop, or that D & D (Dan and Dave) are not the answer, but I still am not ready to say "we're far away." Hell we could be close, albeit with growing pains, but even if we're on the course to bring legit in 2026, then guys like Ramsey would be welcome additions this season. That's just my take on it. I don't think we'll know that we're far away until some point in the season. If we can compete in the South...who knows?