talent vs player develpment

[thefuzz]

13 hours ago, pantherj said:

I don't think we have a high level of talent compared to other NFL teams. If anything we're lagging behind. The difference is Cam Newton on offense, and a good system on defense with experienced players.

The huge improvement in our team is due to Cam Newton's improved understanding of our offense. Our defense is actually on a slight decline imo.

I think our young guys are learning at the usual rate, or maybe a little slower in the case of Boston and Ealy.

Ultimately I give a lot of the credit to Cam. If we had an ordinary QB this team would be well below .500. We're hurting talent wise, and our coaches are nothing special. We have Cam, and he'd make any other team in the NFL a winner if he joined them. 

 

 

Horrible analysis.

You want to take a look at the different "teams" on our team and compare it with the rest of the NFC S as far as talent goes?

QB= More talent than the rest of the NFCS

RB=No better squad in the NFCS

OL= Same as above.

DL= Better than the rest of the NFCS

LB= Better than any team in the NFL

DB= Average right now, but I fully expect that to be a push this offseason...and we have the best CB in the game right now

WR= Pretty good talent, but Tampa and Atlanta have some studs there

And to the worst part of your post....

Coaches: Wouldn't trade what we have for anyone right now.

[thefuzz]

As to the original question.

It's a healthy mix of both talent acquisition and coaching. The biggest part, is the GM understanding what Ron is trying to do, and Ron being able to coach his guys up to be able to do what he wants to do.

I think that we have the best "talent guy" in the NFL right now sitting in the GM's seat, and one of the best "teaching" coaches in the NFL.

[pantherj]

24 minutes ago, thefuzz said:

Horrible analysis.

You want to take a look at the different "teams" on our team and compare it with the rest of the NFC S as far as talent goes?

QB= More talent than the rest of the NFCS

RB=No better squad in the NFCS

OL= Same as above.

DL= Better than the rest of the NFCS

LB= Better than any team in the NFL

DB= Average right now, but I fully expect that to be a push this offseason...and we have the best CB in the game right now

WR= Pretty good talent, but Tampa and Atlanta have some studs there

And to the worst part of your post....

Coaches: Wouldn't trade what we have for anyone right now.

You're aware the NFCS is a dumpster fire. You compare our team to the terrible NFCS, and we're better. So? The worst part of your post starts at the beginning and ends at the end.

[thefuzz]

23 minutes ago, pantherj said:

You're aware the NFCS is a dumpster fire. You compare our team to the terrible NFCS, and we're better. So? The worst part of your post starts at the beginning and ends at the end.

And you are aware that the no. 1 goal every season is to win your division and punch your card to the playoffs, right?

You want to expand from the NFCS and go for the entire NFC?

[pantherj]

1 minute ago, thefuzz said:

And you are aware that the no. 1 goal every season is to win your division and punch your card to the playoffs, right?

You want to expand from the NFCS and go for the entire NFC?

What strange questions. Yes I know winning the NFCS is important to make the playoffs. It's good that we're the best team in the NFCS, but that's not even on topic.

Ok I see what happened here. You misread what I originally wrote. I wasn't comparing the Panthers talent level to just the NFCS, or just the NFC, but rather the entire NFL.

Here is the original statement: "I don't think we have a high level of talent compared to other NFL teams."

Having a high level of talent when compared with the rest of the teams in the NFL is very rare. Teams tend to have a average level of talent overall, and then the QB position is the difference maker. Like the Patriots could have an average level of talent and still win the SB due to Brady's superior play. I think we have an average level of talent overall and we're being pulled up by Cam. Then you lazered in on the NFCS and the train came off the tracks.

[thefuzz]

1 hour ago, pantherj said:

What strange questions. Yes I know winning the NFCS is important to make the playoffs. It's good that we're the best team in the NFCS, but that's not even on topic.

Ok I see what happened here. You misread what I originally wrote. I wasn't comparing the Panthers talent level to just the NFCS, or just the NFC, but rather the entire NFL.

Here is the original statement: "I don't think we have a high level of talent compared to other NFL teams."

Having a high level of talent when compared with the rest of the teams in the NFL is very rare. Teams tend to have a average level of talent overall, and then the QB position is the difference maker. Like the Patriots could have an average level of talent and still win the SB due to Brady's superior play. I think we have an average level of talent overall and we're being pulled up by Cam. Then you lazered in on the NFCS and the train came off the tracks.

I understood you perfectly, you said that we "don't have a high talent level compared to the NFL" in a way, that we are average.

I'm saying that we are fielding multiple units that are top 10 in the NFL as far as talent.

Offense:

QB: Top 5

OL: Top 10

WR:  Top 20 (one of the areas of weakness as a group)

TE:  Top 5

RB:  Top 5/10

 

Defense:

DL:  Top 10

LB:  Best in NFL

DB:  Top 20 (another area of weakness, although we have the best corner)

 

ST: Top 20/25 (this is an area that has plagued us for a while and I put that on coaching)

 

Does Cam help cover up lots of things?  Yes, but we are still a really good team, top to bottom.

 

[pantherj]

35 minutes ago, thefuzz said:

I understood you perfectly, you said that we "don't have a high talent level compared to the NFL" in a way, that we are average.

I'm saying that we are fielding multiple units that are top 10 in the NFL as far as talent.

Offense:

QB: Top 5

OL: Top 10

WR:  Top 20 (one of the areas of weakness as a group)

TE:  Top 5

RB:  Top 5/10

 

Defense:

DL:  Top 10

LB:  Best in NFL

DB:  Top 20 (another area of weakness, although we have the best corner)

 

ST: Top 20/25 (this is an area that has plagued us for a while and I put that on coaching)

 

Does Cam help cover up lots of things?  Yes, but we are still a really good team, top to bottom.

 

All of your rankings are of course just opinions. If my opinion differs and I don't think we have top 10 lines does that make my post horrible? Of course not. Give us a regular pocket passing QB and I think your opinion of our o-line's ranking would change very quickly. Cam is masking our teams problems. There has never been a QB like Cam before, and we're reaping huge rewards. He's lifting up this team.

[thefuzz]

1 hour ago, pantherj said:

All of your rankings are of course just opinions. If my opinion differs and I don't think we have top 10 lines does that make my post horrible? Of course not. Give us a regular pocket passing QB and I think your opinion of our o-line's ranking would change very quickly. Cam is masking our teams problems. There has never been a QB like Cam before, and we're reaping huge rewards. He's lifting up this team.

You don't win 17 games in an NFL season with average NFL talent, no matter how good any 1 player is.

Cam is helping, just like all top tier QB's, but would he be as good as he is without Olsen, the 2nd best pass catching TE in the league?  Or without the best GCG combo in the league?  Or one of the top 6 RB's in the league?

I hate the Pro Bowl, and everything it stands for, but you also don't put 10 players in it by having average NFL talent.  

You keep going back to Cam and how much he helps others...did Cam intercept 7 passes this year?  Did he make Norman the best CB in the league this year?  Luke?  TD?  KK?  Star?

And yes, your "we are lagging behind" when compared to the rest of the league talk makes your analysis horrible.

[t96]

9 hours ago, Moose Hoover said:

norman - talent and coaching

kk - talent and coaching

star - talent and coaching

shaq - talent

funch - talent

trai - talent and coaching

norwell - coaching

All of these guys are being coached well, I just indicated what I think they are relying on at this point in their career. Once Shaq and Funchess get more coaching/experience, watch out. JNo used to be in the talent category as well.

Norwell gets by on pure heart and determination and a mean intensity. Doesn't need talent or coaching. Those are my favorite kind of players.

[pantherj]

Double post.

[pantherj]

1 hour ago, thefuzz said:

You don't win 17 games in an NFL season with average NFL talent, no matter how good any 1 player is.

Cam is helping, just like all top tier QB's, but would he be as good as he is without Olsen, the 2nd best pass catching TE in the league?  Or without the best GCG combo in the league?  Or one of the top 6 RB's in the league?

I hate the Pro Bowl, and everything it stands for, but you also don't put 10 players in it by having average NFL talent.  

You keep going back to Cam and how much he helps others...did Cam intercept 7 passes this year?  Did he make Norman the best CB in the league this year?  Luke?  TD?  KK?  Star?

And yes, your "we are lagging behind" when compared to the rest of the league talk makes your analysis horrible.

You can certainly win 17 games with less than high level talent overall when your QB is incredible. We proved it, and shocked the sports media and experts who clearly saw that the overall talent level was not elite. Hell we shocked our own fan base as well. I won't dig up your prediction for how many wins you thought we would have this season. We were lacking in talent in more areas than the teams with high level talent overall, but we had Cam. We were lacking at DB, DE, OT, WR, special teams, but you're a lot like your profile picture. You're a bulldog and stubborn and you'll stick with your position. That's fine. I respect that. We disagree. The QB position can make all the difference. We totally disagree on this point, but no use continuing.

[pantherj]

Just now, panthernation8923 said:

name all these great qb's and how many times they have won 17 games that had inferior talent on their team in the entire history of the nfl

believing in your own argument doesn't make it less idiotic

Of course 17 wins is a very rare event for any team no matter the talent level or QB. This post is kind of useless.

[pantherj]

7 minutes ago, panthernation8923 said:

well apparently it only takes 1 great qb to carry a team to 17 wins in your thought process, was wondering when those events happened

You know it's not black or white situation. It's not a great QB with a garbage team being carried to 17 wins. It's a grey and complex situation. I have no Earthly idea why you think that I think that all you have to do is land a great QB and a 17 win season is on the way.

We were not a bad team talent wise. We were close to middle of the pack talent wise, especially after losing KB, except that we had Cam, and he exploded this season with a combination of rushing and passing that has never been seen before on that level. Cam had rushed and passed before with mixed results, but this was different. He was truly in command of the offense, and opposing defenses were hard pressed to even slow him down. He made mediocre WRs look much better than their talent level. Our offensive production, largely fueled by Cam's amazing play, helped our patchwork defense, which had a weak pass rush, and barely average coverage, hang on just enough to get the win. 

I think what's happening here is that some fans are feeling emotionally upset about the idea that we have average level talent overall. They feel upset because they think that's an insult to their favorite Panther players. Like someone who loves Luke might feel butthurt. But the thing it's not a knock on any individual player. Luke is a fantastic MLB. Amazing. We have some elite players. No doubt. We also had gaping holes, and several stop gap players who would not start on any other team in the NFL. You have to look at the whole picture. I'm not attacking this team's superstars.

[KB_fan]

I think the fact that we had 10 pro-bowlers and 8 All Pros (6 1st team / 2 2nd team) should go a pretty long way to prove we have some real talent. 

At one point in the season we had 4 players ranked as #1 in their position by PFF (I think it was Josh, KK, Kalil, Luke)...

Look at how we nearly locked up the player of the week / month awards. 

That was the thing I think it took people to realize - how deep of a roster and how talented a team we had.  It really wasn't just the Cam & Luke show, or even the Cam, Greg & Luke show.

I do think scheme & coaching played a role... our coaches knowing how to maximize players' strengths & weaknesses, utilizing them to their maximum potential.  Ted Ginn is perhaps the best example of this.  Our coaching didn't help his speed, but it did allow us to utilize his talent and speed more effectively than other teams have been able to do...