Mike n Mike talk team building

[Krovvy]

7 hours ago, Ivan The Awesome said:

 

What about it? Did that 15-1 season really merit the use of it? How do you know he won't use it for the next coming season for the betterment of the team? 

You're really doing Dave a great disservice by not even acknowledging, KB, Funch, Oher, Ginn, Trai, Norwell, Brown, Larsen, etc players that have helped Cam. You make it seem like he's not helping him. Is it enough? Probably not anymore, defenses have figured it out and they are getting much faster. Which is what the current tackles have problems with. 

 

The one that I don't believe is helping him at the moment, is shula. Hopefully, Gettleman and Rivera listen to him and get him what he 'needs' to succeed. Next season is going to be telling for sure. 

You're joking right? You do realize it's 2017? The Panthers are coming off a six win season.

Out of the players you listed only three were drafted, and only two should be starters. Devin Funchess was not worth the picks it took to get him. The rest of the players you listed are either UDFA or low cost free agents brought in to fill roster spots.

Oher was serviceable in 2015, but was really just another shot in the dark by Gettleman, like many players he's signed, and now he's missed almost an entire season. Ginn however does well in the Panthers' system though isn't a great receiver, but we're paying him peanuts, which is why he left for Arizona, and why he's back in Carolina.

[Krovvy]

7 hours ago, grimesgoat said:

It never ceases to amaze how some folks whine about Dave not doing anything about the offensive line.  He inherited no money and a retiring Gross.  This is what he did:

• RT: Remmers/Williams for Byron Bell
• RG: Trai Turner for Gary WIlliams
• C: Kalil for Kalil
• LG: Norwell for Silatolu
• LT: Oher for Retired Gross

Waiting to replace these 2012 studs we had Chandler, Byers, Campbell, Pollak, and Zack Williams.  Now we have Larsen, Gradkowski, Yankey, and Remmers as backups.  Night and Day

I think Dave does not get enough credit for rebuilding this disaster and I'd be stunned if he did not continue this work with another tackle in the 3rd or 4th this year. 

Meanwhile everyone points to the cowboys as the standard.  But that is about to change significantly.  Smiths cap hit is going from 6.8 mil to 15.8mil next year.  Frederic is going from 2.2 to 14.9 mil.  Free is going from 4.5 to 7.5 mil.  Leary is a free agent so he'll get paid by someone.  Martin is still pretty cheap at 2.9.

I've heard that Gettleman was part of why Gross retired, though I don't know how true that is. Also, I don't know if you really want to compare Hurney's offensive lines with Gettleman's.

[truthjuice]

12 hours ago, mc52beast said:

Heard a conversation this morning on Mike n Mike where they were discussing how to build around a superstar qb, and they basically went against everything Dave believes in. 

They both said to give your superstar what he needs to win NOW, not over multiple seasons.

Who is right you guys?

Well that's the formula any normal GM would use. And if he sees something isn't working, they make the necessary changes. 

[Mr. Scot]

1 hour ago, Krovvy said:

I've heard that Gettleman was part of why Gross retired, though I don't know how true that is. Also, I don't know if you really want to compare Hurney's offensive lines with Gettleman's.

Gross himself refuted the notion.

And Hurney is the guy who took Amini Silatolu over Corey Glenn, so I wouldn't go puffing up about his OL prowess.

[Krovvy]

1 hour ago, Mr. Scot said:

Gross himself refuted the notion.

And Hurney is the guy who took Amini Silatolu over Corey Glenn, so I wouldn't go puffing up about his OL prowess.

Can you link to where Gross refuted it? Was it a tweet or something?

And while Hurney did take Amini high, it isn't even in the same ballpark as rolling with Bryon Bell as the starting left tackle with a defensive tackle turned guard, turned tackle on the other side.

[Mr. Scot]

11 hours ago, Krovvy said:

Can you link to where Gross refuted it? Was it a tweet or something?

And while Hurney did take Amini high, it isn't even in the same ballpark as rolling with Bryon Bell as the starting left tackle with a defensive tackle turned guard, turned tackle on the other side.

Jordan Gross at peace with retirement
 

Quote

“A year prior to retirement," he said, “I restructured my contract. I could tell I was near the end and I wouldn’t want to play much longer. My strength wasn’t what it was. I don’t believe there’s really any natural 300-pound person. It was getting difficult in all phases of my job to retain strength. I decided to try to do everything I could to play one more season at the highest level I could—be healthy, lead guys, go all out to play at the highest level I could.”

Throughout the season, a surprisingly great one both for the team and for a tackle who knew he was done at the end of it, Gross brought his 8-year-old son, Teddy, to work with him when Teddy either didn't have school or it was Saturday and Teddy could come and sit in the hot tub with the left tackle and a few of his mates. Before games, Teddy would be down on the field to experience the last year of his dad's pro football career. That's the way Jordan Gross wanted it—no one in the outside world or even the Panthers knowing he was playing his last season, no attention paid to it, just a man working as hard as he could to play at the highest level he could before he left the game.

"I never wanted to play longer than I should,'' he said. "I never wanted anyone to be able to say, 'He stayed too long.' Instead of just hanging on and playing at a lower level, I always thought it would be better for people to say to me, 'Why'd you retire? You were great last year.'"

"But the money,'' I said. "If you played another two years, someone—Carolina or someone—would have paid you at least $15 million.''

"Oh, I thought about that,'' Gross said. "Who wouldn't? It's really great, to have all that money. But how good would it be to play a year or two more and have that extra money, and you have a shot joint or a knee that doesn't work anymore? I made a lot of money playing football already."

He told the Panthers five days after the season. They didn't try to talk him out of it. "How many people in sports get to call their own shot and get to go out the way they want?" Carolina GM Dave Gettleman said. "How many people get to go out going 12-4, making the Pro Bowl, playing at the highest level of their job, his team winning the division? The thing I'll always remember is the way Jordan was at the end. On the last Thursday practice of the regular season, he and [guard] Travelle Wharton, who he played next to for so long, had a race down the field—laughing all the way. And the next day, Friday, they did it again. He just loved everything about the game, about his teammates, about competing.''

The narrative that Gross was "pushed out" is pure bulls--t.

As to Bell and Chandler, they were both Hurney signings (undrafted).  Bell was already the starting right tackle when Gettleman got here. And Chandler's position switch was suggested by John Matsko and Ray Brown during 2013 OTAs (he had played offensive line and tight end in college before switching to defensive tackle).

After Gross retired, we had very little cap space due to Hurney's contracts.  They did try for a left tackle in free agency - Anthony Collins - who wound up signing with the Bucs for way more than he was worth and then playing so badly we were thanking God that we didn't overpay for him.  Collins was actually one of several tackles who got overpaid that offseason, and the majority proved not to be worth the money and wound up out of a job.

Thus, sans money to spend, we got Byron Bell moving left.

But in the meanwhile, we also added Trai Turner (3rd round) and Andrew Norwell (undrafted, yet better than 2nd Round Pick Silatolu) and signed a good stopgap in Michael Oher.

Hurney had some good OL picks over time (Gross, Kalil and Otah being the best though Otah didn't last long) but also spent some high picks on guys that barely - in some cases never - saw the field like Bruce Nelson and Rashad Butler.  In-between that, we wound up letting go of some guys that turned out to be way better with someone else coaching them (Evan Mathis, Joe Berger, Geoff Schwartz and Will Montgomery to name a few).

And of course, Amini over Cordy Glenn (oy).

There were certainly decent lines in there (03 and 08 in particular) but consistently good?  Not really, especially in the last few years here.  The clearest evidence of that being our win-loss records (like the one that got Hurney fired).

[csx]

1 hour ago, Krovvy said:

Can you link to where Gross refuted it? Was it a tweet or something?

And while Hurney did take Amini high8, it isn't even in the same ballpark as rolling with Bryon Bell as the starting left tackle with a defensive tackle turned guard, turned tackle on the other side.

Hurney gave us Byron Bell and Nate Chandler.

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, csx said:

Hurney gave us Byron Bell and Nate Chandler.

And the contracts that gave us no room to sign much of anybody else.

[csx]

The article where Gross said he planned to retire before the 13 season started has been posted and referred to numerous times. It's why he did This is Gross. 

 

http://mmqb.si.com/2014/07/29/jordan-gross-weight-retirement-panthers

[TheRed]

Oh here we go with the Hurney is the boogeyman, and to blame for all our problems arguments.

He is gone. He's been gone for years.

It's 2017.

[TheRed]

It wasn't Marty Hurney that witnessed his $100 million MVP franchise QB get hit again and again and again and again behind an over matched offensive line in the biggest game of his career, and the history of this franchise. Only to sit on his hands in the offseason convinced that we didn't need to address the OL.

Ironically if he had showed the kind of aggressive mindset toward the OL as he did in addressing our punter situation, perhaps we wouldn't have had to allow games to come down to one or two kicks for the kicker he decided to make one of the top paid in the league to shank horribly.

[Jangler]

9 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Jordan Gross at peace with retirement
 

The narrative that Gross was "pushed out" is pure bulls--t.

As to Bell and Chandler, they were both Hurney signings (undrafted).  Bell was already the starting right tackle when Gettleman got here.  As to Chandler, it was John Matsko and Ray brown who suggested he try out for OL during 2013 OTAs (he had played offensive line and tight end in college before switching to defensive tackle).

After Gross retired, we had very little cap space due to Hurney's contracts.  They did try for a left tackle in free agency - Anthony Collins - who wound up signing with the Bucs for way more than he was worth and then playing so badly we were thanking God that we didn't overpay for him.  Collins was actually one of several tackles who got overpaid that offseason, and the majority proved not to be worth the money and wound up out of a job.

Thus, sans money to spend, we got Byron Bell moving left.

But in the meanwhile, we also added Trai Turner (3rd round) and Andrew Norwell (undrafted, yet better than 2nd Round Pick Silatolu) and signed a good stopgap in Michael Oher.

Hurney had some good OL picks over time (Gross, Kalil and Otah being the best though Otah didn't last long) but also spent some high picks on guys that barely - in some cases never - saw the field like Bruce Nelson and Rashad Butler.  In-between that, we wound up letting go of some guys that turned out to be way better with someone else coaching them (Evan Mathis, Joe Berger, Geoff Schwartz and Will Montgomery to name a few).

And of course, Amini over Cordy Glenn (oy).

There were certainly decent lines in there (03 and 08 in particular) but consistently good?  Not really, especially in the last few years here.  The clearest evidence of that being our win-loss records (like the one that got Hurney fired).

[Jangler]

37 minutes ago, TheRed said:

Oh here we go with the Hurney is the boogeyman, and to blame for all our problems arguments.

He is gone. He's been gone for years.

It's 2017.

 

mistakes or missteps have been made, but overall, we now have money, the next few months is exactly what DG has been waiting for. 

 

[TheRed]

Just now, Jangler said:

Yeah, and we really still aren't out of his hell...JStew. 

mistakes or missteps have been made, but overall, we now have money, the next few months is exactly what DG has been waiting for. 

 

Stewart is probably not the right candidate for you to use to make the cap hell argument with.

Like it or not, the guy has actually been earning his money, his value to the team is obvious. I don't see us winning 15 games last year, or making it to the Super Bowl without Jonathan. Think back to that ridiculous run he broke off to start the playoff game against the Seahawks.

I like Dave, I want to see him succeed here. I think he has done many good things for us. But we unequivocally blew it in the 2016 offseason. I refuse to participate in this circle jerk about how we just couldn't do anything, aw shucks, we only won 6 games, there was just no way we could have prevented this. F*ck that noise. You want to be a champion, you have to act like one. Teams like the Patriots (like them or not) keep making it to the big games because they know you have to evolve each season. Know what I'm saying?