Who has been most underwhelming?

[hepcat]

On 8/23/2018 at 8:04 PM, Hotsauce said:

The All-Pro “Insider” section of the huddle

Winner

[Snake]

57 minutes ago, Icege said:

Could you explain how you came to that conclusion from the data that was presented?

For one the data is misleading, at one point it says Butler was KKs replacement which is UT and then tries to prove similarities to Star's stats who is a NT. Then it jumps again by saying he would perform better maybe if KK was on the bench but we can't do that. Fact is Butler is a UT who is underperforming at that position. Kyle Love is your back up NT and he is very good at that. Butler would not be a terrible player if he were picked in round 3 and that's where his talent is. There were better players on the board that we missed because we drafted for safety. 

[Icege]

1 hour ago, Snake said:

For one the data is misleading, at one point it says Butler was KKs replacement which is UT and then tries to prove similarities to Star's stats who is a NT. Then it jumps again by saying he would perform better maybe if KK was on the bench but we can't do that. Fact is Butler is a UT who is underperforming at that position. Kyle Love is your back up NT and he is very good at that. Butler would not be a terrible player if he were picked in round 3 and that's where his talent is. There were better players on the board that we missed because we drafted for safety. 

Butler has been used to spell both Star and KK, hence the comparison to Star. During the first and second preseason games for this season, for example, Butler was the one receiving the doubles. It isn't so much which position gets the double team between the UT/NT as much as it is the superior player of the two (or whichever way the play design is directed).

Can you quote where it says that he would perform better if Kawann Short is on the bench? That might be where the misunderstanding is, because what was being proposed was not that benching KK would cause Vernon to perform better, rather it was to show that because we have such a high quality player in Short that the opportunities for Butler are not as often as we might want. It also further illustrates just how productive Butler has been in his limited playing time.

It's strange that you state that Butler is under performing as a UT, and I'm assuming that is due to his stat sheet? I'm not going to belittle you by pointing out the obvious, "Linemen do the dirty work that don't show up on the stat sheet!" but let's take a look at the data from another angle. Let's compare it directly to the Pro Bowl UT that is getting the snaps.

2013 KK vs. 2016 Butler
Pass Deflections: 0 vs. 1 (0 vs. 0.004)
Forced Fumbles: 1 vs. 0 (0.002  vs. 0)
Fumble Recoveries: 1 vs. 0 (0.002 vs. 0)
Sacks: 1.5 vs. 1.5 (0.006 vs. 0.006)
Tackles: 19 vs. 5 (0.03 vs. 0.02)
Assists: 16 vs. 8 (0.03 vs. 0.03)
Blocked FGs: 0 vs. 2 (0 vs. 0.007)
Snaps: 577 vs. 267

On a per snap basis, equal production between the two in terms of sacks and tackle assists. Short has a ~33% better solo tackle ratio, a forced fumble, and a fumble recovery but Butler also has two blocked field goals and a pass deflection.

Wish I had metrics at the ready for the rate that these guys face double/triple teams, because I think that would provide a LOT of insight into DL play. If you or anybody else happens to know a spot that has em, pls halp. I'd pop open NFL Rewind to try and get at least a couple of games fast forwarded thru to see the rate, but I didn't renew my season tix this season so no freebie for me. :(

[Snake]

12 hours ago, Icege said:

Butler has been used to spell both Star and KK, hence the comparison to Star. During the first and second preseason games for this season, for example, Butler was the one receiving the doubles. It isn't so much which position gets the double team between the UT/NT as much as it is the superior player of the two (or whichever way the play design is directed).

Can you quote where it says that he would perform better if Kawann Short is on the bench? That might be where the misunderstanding is, because what was being proposed was not that benching KK would cause Vernon to perform better, rather it was to show that because we have such a high quality player in Short that the opportunities for Butler are not as often as we might want. It also further illustrates just how productive Butler has been in his limited playing time.

It's strange that you state that Butler is under performing as a UT, and I'm assuming that is due to his stat sheet? I'm not going to belittle you by pointing out the obvious, "Linemen do the dirty work that don't show up on the stat sheet!" but let's take a look at the data from another angle. Let's compare it directly to the Pro Bowl UT that is getting the snaps.

2013 KK vs. 2016 Butler
Pass Deflections: 0 vs. 1 (0 vs. 0.004)
Forced Fumbles: 1 vs. 0 (0.002  vs. 0)
Fumble Recoveries: 1 vs. 0 (0.002 vs. 0)
Sacks: 1.5 vs. 1.5 (0.006 vs. 0.006)
Tackles: 19 vs. 5 (0.03 vs. 0.02)
Assists: 16 vs. 8 (0.03 vs. 0.03)
Blocked FGs: 0 vs. 2 (0 vs. 0.007)
Snaps: 577 vs. 267

On a per snap basis, equal production between the two in terms of sacks and tackle assists. Short has a ~33% better solo tackle ratio, a forced fumble, and a fumble recovery but Butler also has two blocked field goals and a pass deflection.

Wish I had metrics at the ready for the rate that these guys face double/triple teams, because I think that would provide a LOT of insight into DL play. If you or anybody else happens to know a spot that has em, pls halp. I'd pop open NFL Rewind to try and get at least a couple of games fast forwarded thru to see the rate, but I didn't renew my season tix this season so no freebie for me. :(

Butler doesn't spell Star. Like I said Kyle Love is the NT. Normally the NT is taking the double from the C and G. While someone like KK does get doubled its usually on passing downs. Love is usually taking the double while Butler is getting in the run lane or rushing. Or on passing downs KK is taking the double and Butler get one man. Star was only a two down NT so Butler got most of the snaps in passing downs. This year he will see little action because Poe can play more downs and love can spell him. Basically Butler will spell KK and KK doesn't go out of the game much. People will point to him not getting snaps but as I have said he hasn't really been effective with his opportunities. A few good bat downs but that's it. 

 

[CarolinaHuddleFan]

It's preseason. Means nothing and the performances have no relevance to the actual season.

[Icege]

9 hours ago, Snake said:

Butler doesn't spell Star. Like I said Kyle Love is the NT. Normally the NT is taking the double from the C and G. While someone like KK does get doubled its usually on passing downs. Love is usually taking the double while Butler is getting in the run lane or rushing. Or on passing downs KK is taking the double and Butler get one man. Star was only a two down NT so Butler got most of the snaps in passing downs. This year he will see little action because Poe can play more downs and love can spell him. Basically Butler will spell KK and KK doesn't go out of the game much. People will point to him not getting snaps but as I have said he hasn't really been effective with his opportunities. A few good bat downs but that's it. 

 

I can say without a doubt that your claim about Love eating up the double teams as if this were the regular thing is undeniably false. I made it a point to watch Butler during the first two preseason games and was even in the game thread commenting with other Huddlers about how he was getting double teamed consistently but was still getting pressure or at least anchoring.  What you're presenting here is theory based off of labels (NT/UT) without taking into consideration the actual execution.

You've also claimed that he hasn't produced and are insisting on trying to say, "We can't compare to Star" yet the post you're responding to is directly comparing him to KK. It's showing that he has produced nearly equal to KK despite less than half the opportunities. Can you please explain why you believe that he isn't producing when given the opportunity despite the data showing that he is?

[Snake]

56 minutes ago, Icege said:

I can say without a doubt that your claim about Love eating up the double teams as if this were the regular thing is undeniably false. I made it a point to watch Butler during the first two preseason games and was even in the game thread commenting with other Huddlers about how he was getting double teamed consistently but was still getting pressure or at least anchoring.  What you're presenting here is theory based off of labels (NT/UT) without taking into consideration the actual execution.

You've also claimed that he hasn't produced and are insisting on trying to say, "We can't compare to Star" yet the post you're responding to is directly comparing him to KK. It's showing that he has produced nearly equal to KK despite less than half the opportunities. Can you please explain why you believe that he isn't producing when given the opportunity despite the data showing that he is?

Idk what you were seeing but I re-watch every game and love was at NT taking on the double while Butler was getting washed or being held up by one guy. I guess we can agree to disagree and leave it there but to say Butler is living up to his first round selection seems foolish to me.