LaDainian Tomlinson on the Panthers offense

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, bigdavis said:

I suggest you don't try it again.  Probably half the posters here never heard of any of those gals, and the other half are suspicious of us that we did.

I'd point you to the thread about Matt Kalil returning from injury.

They may or may not know the others, but there's pretty solid evidence in that thread that a lot of guys here know who Tonya Harding is 

 

[Goondal]

If that is the case then it is not Cam who bares the brunt of the responsibility.  It is the coaches job to find the best scheme to fit their personnel.

I know the level of competition is nowhere near the same but a friend and I have coached youth flag football across multiple age groups for years.  He has the offense and I have the defense.  While we both have our favored systems, neither is married to it and we change things each year to fit that group’s abilities.

[JARROD]

4 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

While I'm at it, a comment about coaches and systems...

I've heard the whole "no pure system" discussion before. It's kind of a pseudo-intellectual argument. It's not like there ever was an official Coryell handbook or anything of that sort.

Every system is a set of rules with its own concepts, emphases and nuances. Coaches coach within those systems. Some are better at it than others but each has their own take.

So while Turner, for example, operates within the rules of the Coryell offense, it's the Norv Turner system but built on a foundation of Coryell principles.

Saying there's no pure system just because different coaches go about it their own way is like saying there's no such thing as a horror genre because Stephen King and Dean Koontz have different writing styles.

We will disagree on this-- and actually most of Dean Koontz novels like Cold Fire or Lightning were not horror books-- actually Lightning is one of my favorite stories.

Actually a great example you made-- coming back at you.  Someone grows up rooted in horror books, but they develop their own writing style and shift to sci fi thrillers with comic relief,...

Again, the days of having one style at a time kung fu are over.

I still dont think you read the article-- or you did and it didnt fit your narrative, think it was written by someone who doesnt agree with you, and so you discounted it.

Anyway,.. to quote the Matrix,..

"There is no spoon"

 

 

[Mr. Scot]

40 minutes ago, JARROD said:

We will disagree on this-- and actually most of Dean Koontz novels like Cold Fire or Lightning were not horror books-- actually Lightning is one of my favorite stories.

Actually a great example you made-- coming back at you.  Someone grows up rooted in horror books, but they develop their own writing style and shift to sci fi thrillers with comic relief,...

Again, the days of having one style at a time kung fu are over.

I still dont think you read the article-- or you did and it didnt fit your narrative, think it was written by someone who doesnt agree with you, and so you discounted it.

Anyway,.. to quote the Matrix,..

"There is no spoon"

 

 

Paragraph by paragraph, sentence by sentence, King is the better writer. Better sentence structure, better paragraph splits, better syntax/wording, etc.

Koontz is the better storyteller. His ideas are more interesting, his storylines are more focused, he doesn't make half of his heroes male writers and he doesn't spend an inordinate amount of time focusing on Maine geography. All that plus he knows how to come up with a solid ending (which King can't do to save his life) and he's never written a story that involves children having sex.

As for the article, yeah I read it. I'll probably read it again. A lot of people find "nuts and bolts" football boring. Not me. I eat that stuff up.

[JARROD]

2 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Tempo and timing aren't the same thing though.

You can run an up tempo offense no matter what scheme you use; Coryell, WCO, E-P, Zone Read, Spread, whatever. It's just a matter of getting the play call in, getting to the line and making the snap.

The timing that Tomlinson is talking about is where the quarterback drops back 3, 5, or 7 steps, plants and throws the to an assigned spot or receiver. it's all based on precision, rhythm and structure.

Mechanical quarterbacks like Brees and Manning (guys whose passing mechanics look identical from one pass to the next) thrive in those sorts of systems. Stick them in a situation that's more "wing it" though, and they're less effective, but guys like Newton and Roethlisberger are ideal.

Can you adapt those guys to systems that don't fit their skill sets? You can certainly try, but it's generally more efficient and effective to just find a guy that works with what you do.

Who said tempo and timing were the same thing?

i responded to a post about Chip kelly fast tempo all the time and responded with coaches that like the concepts but blend it into what they do.

the article that apparently didn’t get read mentions this with frequency— tempo and play designs,.. Chip kelly really influenced a lot of NFL coaches— the Patriots were some of the first to mix his concepts with what they do.

On timing— where I think perception skews reality for someone like Cam or quarterbacks that are big throwers, Favre in there too,..they are allowed and encouraged to improve a lot, so the perception starts that they don’t have or can’t conform to timing.

quarterbacks like Brees get thrown into timing conversations and it gets overlooked just how much he “fluties” a situation,..

that doesn’t mean those quarterbacks can’t have timing or can’t improv— their coaches, their color, their size, etc all go into perception,

we have continuously posted stats and videos that dispel Cams timing versus not argument over the years but the run first, throw like poo perception lives on,..

in the end,.. there is no pure AC or WCO or any of those any more,.. 100 articles I can post would kill that argument...

but perception from yesteryear still persists.

we all believe what we want to believe. I don’t believe anyone is in a box.

[JARROD]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Paragraph by paragraph, sentence by sentence, King is the better writer. Better sentence structure, better paragraph splits, better syntax/wording, etc.

Koontz is the better storyteller. His ideas are more interesting, his storylines are more focused, he doesn't make half of his heroes male writers and he doesn't spend an inordinate amount of time focusing on Maine geography. All that plus he knows how to come up with a solid ending (which King can't do to save his life) and he's never written a story that involves children having sex.

As for the article, yeah I read it. I'll probably read it again. A lot of people find "nuts and bolts" football boring. Not me. I eat that stuff up.

I eat that up too— I agree that King was a better writer,.. but his stories pale in comparison to Koontz,..

imagine if Koontz were to tell his stories to King to write? Wow.

Lightning  is one of my all time favorites,.. kind of the “Man in the High Castle” sort of books.

yeh I eat up football mechanics and I love analytics—But I also hate them when they go too far and forget the human element.

i still think a team like Minnesota,.. even before under Colonel Klink would have been a great place for Cam,..Joe Webb most certainly thought so,.(he didn’t say that, but I gather from a lot of his comments when around Cam that Cam would have learned and interacted great with Brett Favre and could have thrown a system like his— WCO Brett style,..

[Mr. Scot]

41 minutes ago, JARROD said:

Who said tempo and timing were the same thing?

i responded to a post about Chip kelly fast tempo all the time and responded with coaches that like the concepts but blend it into what they do.

the article that apparently didn’t get read mentions this with frequency— tempo and play designs,.. Chip kelly really influenced a lot of NFL coaches— the Patriots were some of the first to mix his concepts with what they do.

On timing— where I think perception skews reality for someone like Cam or quarterbacks that are big throwers, Favre in there too,..they are allowed and encouraged to improve a lot, so the perception starts that they don’t have or can’t conform to timing.

quarterbacks like Brees get thrown into timing conversations and it gets overlooked just how much he “fluties” a situation,..

that doesn’t mean those quarterbacks can’t have timing or can’t improv— their coaches, their color, their size, etc all go into perception,

we have continuously posted stats and videos that dispel Cams timing versus not argument over the years but the run first, throw like poo perception lives on,..

in the end,.. there is no pure AC or WCO or any of those any more,.. 100 articles I can post would kill that argument...

but perception from yesteryear still persists.

we all believe what we want to believe. I don’t believe anyone is in a box.

My thing isn't that the offenses are still "pure". It's that they never were. Ultimately, the coach is the system, but they all operate within a framework, and that framework works better with the right players.

That doesn't mean "putting them in a box", but I've seen loads of examples of system fits and non-fits. That's why I mentioned Brees. He's one of them (bad enough in SD that they used a high pick on Rivers but legendary in New Orleans). The flipside would be any QB developed by Andy Reid. They're always garbage outside his system.

Side Note on the Vikes: I wanted Zimmer before Rivera got the nod here. I think Zimmer is better, but the concern with him is he's a "Harbaugh" type (never satisfied, always angry). That style works well on college kids who cycle out all the time but it wears on professional adults.

Haven't read Lighting but I've heard of it. Phantoms is one of my favorite books but people only remember the s--tty movie.

[London Loves Luke]

On 10/15/2018 at 2:56 PM, joemac said:

I think he is 100% spot on.  How many times do we see Cam take the snap, take a drop and then get the ball out on time, and in rhythm?  Hardly ever from what I can tell.  Cam holds onto the ball FOREVER.  I never see him get the ball, take his drop, plant his foot and fire the ball.  It just looks to me like every single play takes maximum effort and always looks to be on the verge of falling apart.  Everything looks like it is too hard.  Also, it seems like we try to incorporate read option action into just about every running play.  While that sounds good in theory, in reality it causes every single on of our running plays to take forever to happen, and there is usually a jumble at the exchange point.  Everyone notice how hard Peterson was hitting the hole yesterday?  Thats because he gets a full head of steam before he even takes the hand-off.

Two days late but this is pretty much spot on. If I was Norv or Scott Turner I'd get the entire offence metronomes and get them to practice with them all day. 

[YungHamm]

37 minutes ago, London Loves Luke said:

Two days late but this is pretty much spot on. If I was Norv or Scott Turner I'd get the entire offence metronomes and get them to practice with them all day. 

I wouldn't say he NEVER throws on time.  I recall Funchess first touchdown a few weeks ago to come out fast and the Torrey Smith 2 pt conversion as well.  Let's not exaggerate things.  He does hold on longer than most though

[AU-panther]

On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 10:41 AM, beastson said:

Cam is completing damn near 66% of his passes, so what's this timing thing? Tomlinson is talking out of his ass

What's this timing when it came to running 5 damn times to start the game and the ridiculous read option calls on 2nd and long? Tomlinson should watch the entire games before speaking and not just the last drive

Our offense issues isn't timing. It's style. Its the run to set up the throw philosophy. It's tempo. It's definitely play-calls. We also should use Armah in runs, CJ in runs and Samuel in throws.

Completion percentage and timing aren't necessarily always connected.  Accuracy, timing, and touch are all terms that work together but are all different on their own also.

Let says a QB is throwing to a receivers chest sitting down in a zone.  That isn't as much about timing and more about accuracy.  Cam actually tends to throw those pretty well and part of that is arm strength.  He can fit a ball into a spot before the window closes almost better than any QB in the league.  I've seen him make throws that would probably be interceptions for alot of the QBs in the league.

Also dumping off a bunch of short passes to a RB isn't really about timing but it helps your completion percentage.

Completion percentage by itself can be really misleading.  60% in a deep passing attack is more impressive than 65% in dink and dunk offense. 

Also two QBs can have similar completion percentages but one might have a lot more "good" completions.  By that I mean a pass that hits a receiver in stride is different than if the receiver has to dive for it.  Both count as a completion but one might end up in a first down or touchdown.  Over the course of a game those "accurate" completions add up.  PFF actually charts some of that.

In regards to timing, there are different types of timing for a QB.  It can be the ability to hit a receiver on a go route in stride. 

Timing can also be the ability to throw with anticipation.  Releasing the ball before the receiver makes his break, throwing it to where he will be, not where he is.  Here again Cam's arm strength allows him to throw some of those passes later. 

Think about a QB throwing a deep out, I would guess Brady releases the ball sooner than Cam does.  On the surface someone might say Brady is throwing with more "anticipation" than Cam but he physically has to so the ball gets there in time, he just doesn't have the same arm strength.

I haven't took time to chart it or anything but Cam does see to throw behind players more than leading them too much.  Not behind them to the degree of an incompletion but say on a crossing route they have to slow down for it or catch it off of their back hip or shoulder instead of accelerating through the catch.

Here again his arm strength allows him to "aim" for the player more than aiming for where the player will be.  Also he probably thinks it is safer from a turnover perspective.

When you hear a coach talk about building an offense around what Cam does well he is actually saying we are going to stay away from what he does bad.  We don't see as many crossing routes as some QBs, Cam tends to throw a lot of outs and seams when Olsen is healthy.

The other timing, and the one I think LT is referencing, is the timing of the play.  If the play is designed to be a 3 step drop, they are expecting the ball to come out when that back foot hits the ground on that third step.  I don't know the play calls but I'm sure LT has a pretty good idea of what to look for.

Speaking of "touch",  I think of it as the ability to change speed and trajectory to get the ball where you want.  A good example of that would be a QB taking some velocity off a pass by increasing trajectory to maybe drop a pass over a LB but in front of the corner. 

Cam tends to throw a flatter pass than some QBs, here again he has more arm strength than most QBs.

All QBs have strengths and weaknesses.  Maybe Brady has more touch and timing, Cam has more arm strength.  Maybe Brees is 10% more accurate but Cam is a 100% runner. 

At the end of the day if you ask me to pick a QB to build an offense around to average 28 points a game, Cam would be on a very short list of my first choices.

 

[PntherPryd]

Interesting that Deion and LT identify the problem as Cam.  Deion's digs at cam go back to his agents attempt to sign Cam pre draft and also I think he wanted Cam in his pocket like OBJ.  Then you have neon leading the pack attacking Cam for the post game SB interview walk out and you have a lot of hard feelings.  What I see though is Cam owning those hard feelings and having nothing to do with neon while neon keeps stabbing him in the back every chance he gets.