Is the Bucks roster without Giannis worse than the Hornets roster right now?

[nctarheelreincarnated]

Since this is the only Hornets Forum I venture to, I thought I would ask this question.

Side by side which roster sans Giannis is better on paper?

Devonte Graham vs Kris Middleton...........18 ppg vs 21 ppg. Middleton wins right now. Going forward, Graham. 

Cody Zeller vs Brook Lopez........this one shocked me as Cody Zeller's PER and PPG are above Brook Lopez's for the 2019-2020 season. And I don't like Cody Zeller.

Miles Bridges vs Eric Bledsoe.........Bridges at 13 ppg Bledsoe is at 14 ppg. Probably Bledsoe. But, closer.

PJ Washington vs Wesley Matthews..........This isn't even close. PJ Washington.

Terry Rozier vs George Hill............Rozier, sure he isn't that efficient, but he's damn sure better than George Hill. 

Donte Dev vs Malik Monk................Monk, he's averaging more PPG. His PER isn't much lower than Donte's either. 

In essence, you put Giannis on the Hornets, they're probably a number 1 seed right now. 

 

[woahfraze]

No. Just no.

You can't simply compare points per game and PER position by position like that.  And if you're going to rely on statistics to make judgments like this, you better look at a wider variety, including things like field goal percentage. For example, difference in position aside. Middleton shoots 41% from 3 compared to Devonte's 38%, and overall is close to 50% from the field. Devonte is well below 40%.  Devonte is also an undersized point guard who is always going to have some physical limitations when it comes to defense.  Something Middleton doesn't have to worry about.  So Khris Middleton is certainly better than Devonte.  And Brook Lopez has made himself into a modern stretch 5 who can shoot from deep and defend the paint.  To suggest Cody Zeller of all people is better based on higher PER is laughable.

Regardless of what the numbers say, you have to consider what mix of skills each player brings to the table and how those skill sets mesh with one another. The Bucks have a bunch of guys who can stroke it from deep and excel at playing the switching, close-out defense that is required in the current space and pace NBA environment. Yes, giannis helps a lot. His rim protection and switchability are a big reason the Bucks are so good on defense, but take him away, and you still have a good rim protector in Lopez and bunch of good perimeter defenders across the roster.  The Hornets can't say that.  Sure, they'd make the playoffs with giannis on the roster, but the rest of the roster is certainly worse than the Bucks.

[Shocker]

[nctarheelreincarnated]

1 hour ago, woahfraze said:

No. Just no.

You can't simply compare points per game and PER position by position like that.  And if you're going to rely on statistics to make judgments like this, you better look at a wider variety, including things like field goal percentage. For example, difference in position aside. Middleton shoots 41% from 3 compared to Devonte's 38%, and overall is close to 50% from the field. Devonte is well below 40%.  Devonte is also an undersized point guard who is always going to have some physical limitations when it comes to defense.  Something Middleton doesn't have to worry about.  So Khris Middleton is certainly better than Devonte.  And Brook Lopez has made himself into a modern stretch 5 who can shoot from deep and defend the paint.  To suggest Cody Zeller of all people is better based on higher PER is laughable.

Regardless of what the numbers say, you have to consider what mix of skills each player brings to the table and how those skill sets mesh with one another. The Bucks have a bunch of guys who can stroke it from deep and excel at playing the switching, close-out defense that is required in the current space and pace NBA environment. Yes, giannis helps a lot. His rim protection and switchability are a big reason the Bucks are so good on defense, but take him away, and you still have a good rim protector in Lopez and bunch of good perimeter defenders across the roster.  The Hornets can't say that.  Sure, they'd make the playoffs with giannis on the roster, but the rest of the roster is certainly worse than the Bucks.

Looking at their bench, and their starting 5 I would beg to differ man. You're treating them like they're some sort of "great team." And they're struggling against a Miami team that is good but not great. While Graham is limited, he would benefit greatly from Giannis just like Middleton does. Middleton is a number 3 guy playing in a number 2 role. That isn't going to cut it. Graham is in the same tier as him, at this point, and 6 years younger. They have shooters? Well, that doesn't seem to be helping them this series. Tell me, you put Giannis on this team right now. You think they're losing the first two games against Miami? I would beg to differ. 

[woahfraze]

1 hour ago, nctarheelreincarnated said:

Looking at their bench, and their starting 5 I would beg to differ man. You're treating them like they're some sort of "great team." And they're struggling against a Miami team that is good but not great. While Graham is limited, he would benefit greatly from Giannis just like Middleton does. Middleton is a number 3 guy playing in a number 2 role. That isn't going to cut it. Graham is in the same tier as him, at this point, and 6 years younger. They have shooters? Well, that doesn't seem to be helping them this series. Tell me, you put Giannis on this team right now. You think they're losing the first two games against Miami? I would beg to differ. 

Take off the rose-tinted (or in this case, teal) glasses.  Regardless of whether you consider Middleton more of a 2nd or a 3rd banana, he absolutely is a tier above Devonte.   And it's completely silly of you to use two games in this Miami playoff series against the squad.  There's no way of knowing what the Hornets results would be in this series if you swapped the rosters minus giannis.   

This regular season, the Bucks had a Simple Rating System (SRS; it accounts for point differential and strength of schedule) of 9.41. They outscored their opponents by 10.1 points per game on average.  Both marks are top of the league.  The Hornets had an SRS of -7.03 and an average point differential of -8.7, both marks 4th worst in the league.  Prior to the pandemic, the Bucks were on track to have the best point differential in NBA history (not sure if they ended up achieving that). Check out this Ringer article talking about their defense: https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/2/24/21150060/milwaukee-bucks-best-defense-in-history

Sure the Bucks achieved that with giannis, but you're kidding yourself if you think he alone is responsible for such a big gap.  The fact of the matter is the Hornets have a couple of promising young players, but no stars. And the max potential of those players probably isn't star worthy either.  The Bucks don't have a big 2 or 3, but after giannis they have a good 2nd best player in Middleton and a couple other established NBA players who are more capable and effective than anyone the Hornets have on their roster.

[nctarheelreincarnated]

3 minutes ago, woahfraze said:

Take off the rose-tinted (or in this case, teal) glasses.  Regardless of whether you consider Middleton more of a 2nd or a 3rd banana, he absolutely is a tier above Devonte.   And it's completely silly of you to use two games in this Miami playoff series against the squad.  There's no way of knowing what the Hornets results would be in this series if you swapped the rosters minus giannis.   

This regular season, the Bucks had a Simple Rating System (SRS; it accounts for point differential and strength of schedule) of 9.41. They outscored their opponents by 10.1 points per game on average.  Both marks are top of the league.  The Hornets had an SRS of -7.03 and an average point differential of -8.7, both marks 4th worst in the league.  Prior to the pandemic, the Bucks were on track to have the best point differential in NBA history (not sure if they ended up achieving that). Check out this Ringer article talking about their defense: https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/2/24/21150060/milwaukee-bucks-best-defense-in-history

Sure the Bucks achieved that with giannis, but you're kidding yourself if you think he alone is responsible for such a big gap.  The fact of the matter is the Hornets have a couple of promising young players, but no stars. And the max potential of those players probably isn't star worthy either.  The Bucks don't have a big 2 or 3, but after giannis they have a good 2nd best player in Middleton and a couple other established NBA players who are more capable and effective than anyone the Hornets have on their roster.

Well, the issue is, you're saying I shouldn't look at the Bucks in the Playoffs right now as a barometer. Well, sadly, that's how Giannis is viewing it. Yes, the Hornets have young promising players, but the Bucks have peaked and I think the Hornets haven't. I do respect your opinion, but to say that the Hornets roster isn't comparable is a bit ridiculous. The Hornets with Giannis can be down 0-2 to the Heat just like the Bucks. Shrugs. 

[woahfraze]

2 hours ago, nctarheelreincarnated said:

Well, the issue is, you're saying I shouldn't look at the Bucks in the Playoffs right now as a barometer. Well, sadly, that's how Giannis is viewing it. Yes, the Hornets have young promising players, but the Bucks have peaked and I think the Hornets haven't. I do respect your opinion, but to say that the Hornets roster isn't comparable is a bit ridiculous. The Hornets with Giannis can be down 0-2 to the Heat just like the Bucks. Shrugs. 

You didn't argue that the Hornets could be better in the future than the Bucks if we had giannis.  You said we were equivalent or better and would have had the number 1 seed right now.  I just disagree.  It's moving the goal posts to consider potential development / fall off on either side, not that I'm even all that high on the Hornets' young players ever developing into Khris Middleton type players. Shrugs.

[Wolfcop]

When you add in our #3 draft pick, this roster has potential going into the future. Now, if we could add a superstar? 

[bLACKpANTHER]

11 hours ago, carhartt said:

If superstar you meant someone like Julius Randle, then sure. 

whoa - whoa.. yes, my ears perked when I heard we were linked to him in a trade that woulda sent Rozier/Monk to NY but naw.. that's was too much.. he's been in the league 6 years and has never been an allstar or ever played in a single playoff game.. he's also been on 3 teams in 3 years.. he's only averaged a double-double once in 2015-16.. he's #71 on top 100 players: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2858608-bleacher-reports-top-100-players-in-the-nba-right-now

I'm not sh*tting on him.. he's probably better than everyone on our squad honestly.. but he's no superstar..

[bLACKpANTHER]

50 minutes ago, carhartt said:

Honestly, I wouldn’t mind Randle. I was hoping that he would’ve fall in the draft to us. He’s actually hasn’t been bad at all in the NBA. I would just hate to trade Monk away and be stuck with three similar players in Bridges, PJ and Randle. We need some length. 

agree, I want him too.. if it were Rozier for Randle straight up - I'd do it in a heart beat now..

also agree we need length.. Wiseman, let us whisper of a dream