Will we not know the QB situ until the draft or...

[panthers55]

I agree. I think you and panther55 are saying the same thing. Except Panther55 attracts much hate.

Seems I take a more direct perhaps less tactful approach than does Mr Scot. Might have to make a February resolution about that.

[SexySkinMagazine]

whats the latest with Vick coming to the panthers?

still a rumor?

[AceMan]

Not entirely correct.

Contrary to popular belief, Fox isn't an idiot. He's not going to risk his job on a guy just because he likes him. As far as the QB depth chart last season, it wasn't at all that he was afraid of competition. He didn't see the need for it. He had a number three, a vet backup and a starter that, based on prior experience, he trusted.

Reality is that Fox genuinely believed the playoff game was just an aberration and Delhomme would return to form. Did I buy it? Nope, but I acknowledge that knowing only what we knew then, it was a valid option.

He did that this season, man! I'mma reword this...Fox "preferred" Delhomme because of his "work ethic" even though he was failing. Like I said, I blame Fox/Hurney for that huge extension because it was stupid then and incredibly stupid now. Whether Fox felt the need for competition or not, there was none. Fox isn't an idiot, but he sucks at personnel decisions. That was just a downright bad call on Fox/Hurney's part. There was NO competition. Jake had the job wrapped up at that point. There was no way a guy with a 5-year extension was going to fight for his job.

It's a pretty big stretch to suggest that he looked bad all preseason considering that starters, Delhomme included, didn't get that much playing time in preseason save for week three. And no one had any objective analysis that he looked bad in camp. It's not especially easy to tell much of anything in camp. I'd add that fans booing at Fan Fest - or any other time - is utterly meaningless. No coach with half a brain should ever factor fan reaction into his decisions.

Now was Delhomme bad in the opener? Absolutely. So was just about everything else. But to suggest anyone knew ahead of time that it was going to go this bad is just projected hindsight. In truth, other than the playoff game (which, as stated, Fox believed was an aberration) there was no hard evidence to support benching him this season until week one.

Well Jake looked bad overall in preseason, which isn't anything new. And the fact is that Jake looked bad at the Fan Fest as well. Now, the reason I bring those up was because it really shouldn't be a surprise for Jake to play bad in the season because he hasn't looked good since the Raiders game in 2008. This is not my opinion he looked bad in preseason/camp/etc...it was pretty clear on to many people.

Again, not quite true.

It's not that he didn't "like" Matt Moore. He didn't trust Matt Moore because what he saw of Moore's approach to the game made him think Moore would fail on the field. No coach - other than a moron, which Fox is not - would put someone on the field who he didn't believe could win just because it "felt better".

Fox was wrong (very wrong) but it was a judgment call, not something personal.

His coaching instincts told him that Moore was too laid back to be the kind of guy the team needed. And Fox wasn't alone in that opinion. Others (Dan Morgan, for example) expressed similar opinions. Thus, it was a valid way of thinking.

It just happened to be wrong.

1st, show me proof of where this(the bolded) was stated.

2nd, unless Zod is lying, which could be possible, I believe that there was a personality conflict. You can change it up by saying Fox just didn't like Moore's work ethic. Also, Fox has already stated that he couldn't personally bench Delhomme.

http://blogs.charlotte.com/panthers/2009/11/transcript-of-john-fox-news-conference-on-delhomme-moore-etc.html

(If Jake finger sidelines him, would taking a break be good for him?): I think with a broke finger, he’s going to get a little time away from it. If his finger wasn’t an issue, I couldn’t with a straight face make a change just to him.

Dan Morgan expressed his opinion...this is what he said.

He's on WFNZ and they asked his opinion a) if Fox would change QBs (yes), and then who would he start...Dan said that he has heard Moore doesn't know the playbook worth a damn and that Feely would be the starter, if it was up to him. He went on to say that he could be wrong about Moore but these are the things he hears from players.

Know the playbook?! Really? I rather take what came out of the Fox's mouth. Either way, Delhomme was tanking our season. Fox decided to let him, create an "injury" once our season was over, then try out Moore. You HAVE to look at this stuff in hindsight. Yes, it was a wrong move on Fox's part. The Titans was in the same situation, except their owner stepped in.

Actually, it's a pretty healthy dose of your opinion, and that of some others. Little to none of what you posted here really qualifies as objective fact.

Actually, you're only offering you're opinion as counterarguments. I guess all my links are just bad opinions, even though we can clearly review all of this since the season is over. I don't see one opinion of mine in there. Just accept that this crap happened this season.

Fox never blamed Scherer. Neither did Delhomme. An article came out that said Scherer and the team had decided to stop trying to change Jake's mechanics. Did it fix things? No. But was it a wise move? Probably. It's pretty tough to remake a guy Jake's age, and generally unwise to even try.

Still, no one ever actually said Scherer was to blame. They just said they needed to change their approach. And in the short term, it actually helped, but it wasn't the root of the problem.

Okay, I'mma sorta agree because I don't want the fact they did change their approach to get mixed up with my personal opinion of whether he got buried or not.

Well, I agree with everything else:cheers2:

I don't know if your actually disagreeing with me or disagreeing with the way I'm posting my arguments. Alot of fans, like I, are indeed pissed but not everyone is posting emotionally charged replies.

I don't think anything I posted near the end is wild speculation, but accurate speculation. I just have a big disagreement with panthers55 viewpoint on training camp competition, team philosophy, and QBs. This is it in a nutshell.

panthers55 - Moore will come into camp as the starter, if he continues his half-ass work ethic, Delhomme will probably be named starter(with a tighter leash). Other than that, they will both be competing for starting jobs. Let's see how they both perform in camp(wait and see approach). Delhomme would probably be a solid back-up.

and this is how I see it...

AceMan - Moore is already the starter...just not announced yet. I don't see Jake as competition due to my belief he is a horrible QB and the fact that the fans won't accept him as a starting QB no matter what. But, we have no insurance policy behind Moore if Delhomme is the back-up. No one trusts Jake and Fox won't start a rookie/low FA over Delhomme. Therefore, either Moore plays well or we're in the SAME situation as 2009. I want Delhomme to get cut and to bring in a FA so there is at least hope that we have a proper insurance policy in case something happens to Moore(bad play or injury).

I feel like we're trying to bring Delhomme up and make him feel better by saying he is "competing" for a starting job. I don't hear guys like Kerry Collins competing with Vince Young. I don't hear about 13 mil back-ups who everyone knows will be gone next year either. Moore has completely outplayed Delhomme. If we want competition for Moore, we have to bring in a decent FA QB. Delhomme is not competition. Not only that, he is not a good QB anymore. If it is ever announced that we have actual competition between Delhomme and Moore at training camp, I will be pissed because that is just a ploy to make Delhomme look better.

[Udogg]

Well Jake looked bad overall in preseason, which isn't anything new. And the fact is that Jake looked bad at the Fan Fest as well. Now, the reason I bring those up was because it really shouldn't be a surprise for Jake to play bad in the season because he hasn't looked good since the Raiders game in 2008. This is not my opinion he looked bad in preseason/camp/etc...it was pretty clear on to many people.

Not saying you aren't right but anyone who went to training camp more than 2 days would say Jake was the best QB on the roster. Moore looked horrible during TC all 3 of the days I went. Talking to people who were around me and saw other practices they all pretty much concurred. I bring this up to say when you add all the factors up, contract, former starter, arguably still a fan favorite(still had lots in his corner during TC), knew the playbook, popular guy amongst teammates then Fox made the best choice with what he had. In hindsight it was horrible decision, but I don't think anyone here in his position would have done anything different.

[panthers55]

Not saying you aren't right but anyone who went to training camp more than 2 days would say Jake was the best QB on the roster. Moore looked horrible during TC all 3 of the days I went. Talking to people who were around me and saw other practices they all pretty much concurred. I bring this up to say when you add all the factors up, contract, former starter, arguably still a fan favorite(still had lots in his corner during TC), knew the playbook, popular guy amongst teammates then Fox made the best choice with what he had. In hindsight it was horrible decision, but I don't think anyone here in his position would have done anything different.

I would agree with you. It was clear that nobody was exactly lighting it up and I remember saying that as well duirng the time. I think it was something along the lines that Jake isn't looking that great but if he gets hurt we are in real trouble based on how the other guys are looking. Add to that the facts that Jake had the much better preseason based on the numbers and it was clear Fox had little choice and felt secure in the choice of Jake. As we now know, he was wrong but when you get dealt a crappy hand you play what you have until things improve. We can debate forever when Fox should have made the switch but honestly that decision could have made much easier if McCown did not go to IR, and Moore would have shown more early. I think we all agree he held onto Jake too long but hindsight is always 20-20.

But that is why this year will be different and people's fears that Fox will automatically pick Jake are way overblown. Now Fox does know what Moore can do and actually the onus will be on Jake to show that he has something left in the tank rather than Moore having to prove his credentials. I suspect that given he has the inside track to play this year, Moore will be alot more serious and become a much better practice player and watch film etc as a result. I suspect that over the past 5 games he already did that to some extent. He is young and this is a great learning period for him. The team must have seen enough to believe he is the heir apparent in order to hype him up as much as they are.

[Mr. Scot]

He did that this season, man! I'mma reword this...Fox "preferred" Delhomme because of his "work ethic" even though he was failing. Like I said, I blame Fox/Hurney for that huge extension because it was stupid then and incredibly stupid now. Whether Fox felt the need for competition or not, there was none. Fox isn't an idiot, but he sucks at personnel decisions. That was just a downright bad call on Fox/Hurney's part. There was NO competition. Jake had the job wrapped up at that point. There was no way a guy with a 5-year extension was going to fight for his job.

Again, no, there wasn't any competition because Fox didn't see the need for one. He believed he had an established starter, a capable backup and a good enough number three. And truthfully, it wasn't that bad a depth chart even if Delhomme failed. It's not like anyone plans to lose their number two in week one.

Well Jake looked bad overall in preseason, which isn't anything new. And the fact is that Jake looked bad at the Fan Fest as well. Now, the reason I bring those up was because it really shouldn't be a surprise for Jake to play bad in the season because he hasn't looked good since the Raiders game in 2008. This is not my opinion he looked bad in preseason/camp/etc...it was pretty clear on to many people.

Udogg already addressed it in a prior post. No one watching camp would have said Delhomme was the worst of the QBs there. You really don't have anything to stand on with this point. Yes, Delhomme looked bad in week one. But no, there weren't any clear signs that it would be this bad.

1st, show me proof of where this(the bolded) was stated.

2nd, unless Zod is lying, which could be possible, I believe that there was a personality conflict. You can change it up by saying Fox just didn't like Moore's work ethic.

Also, Fox has already stated that he couldn't personally bench Delhomme.

Sorry, but neither of the things you're citing actually says what you think it says.

Here's Zod's post...

When I asked about Matt Moore, he had another perspective I had not heard much. Fox preferred Delhomme, McCown, and even Cantwell to Moore, but not because of anything on the field. Mainly, it was a personality thing. Fox described Moore as being"not a football player". It comes down to nothing on the field, but simply a personality conflict.

Moore is a pretty laid back guy. Tends not to take things overly serious, maybe not even football as much as the next guy. This clashes with the type of player Fox likes to use. But it may also explain how Matt is able to come into big games with all that pressure and perform the way he did.

When he says "not a football player" he's referring to Moore's attitude and approach to the game. That's not a personal dislike, just a belief that Moore didn't have the kind of personality that would make him a good leader and football player. As odd as it sounds, "football player" is generally meant as a compliment when a coach says it (helps to know a little "coachspeak").

And the quote in question from the blog....

I couldn’t with a straight face make a change just to him. That was a combined effort by the offensive players, not just one player – just for the record. And I would say we get a chance to research those things. It was poor not just by the quarterback.

That's not saying "I couldn't bring myself to bench Jake". That's saying "I couldn't put all the blame on him. If I change him, I also need to change other spots.

Dan Morgan expressed his opinion...this is what he said.

Know the playbook?! Really? I rather take what came out of the Fox's mouth. Either way, Delhomme was tanking our season. Fox decided to let him, create an "injury" once our season was over, then try out Moore. You HAVE to look at this stuff in hindsight. Yes, it was a wrong move on Fox's part. The Titans was in the same situation, except their owner stepped in.

It's been shown repeatedly that the whole "fake injury" thing was false. There were journalists and even people on here who have access to the medical records and were able to verify that it's a legit injury.

Actually, you're only offering you're opinion as counterarguments. I guess all my links are just bad opinions, even though we can clearly review all of this since the season is over. I don't see one opinion of mine in there. Just accept that this crap happened this season.

Okay, I'mma sorta agree because I don't want the fact they did change their approach to get mixed up with my personal opinion of whether he got buried or not.

Well, I agree with everything else:cheers2:

I don't know if your actually disagreeing with me or disagreeing with the way I'm posting my arguments. Alot of fans, like I, are indeed pissed but not everyone is posting emotionally charged replies.

I don't think anything I posted near the end is wild speculation, but accurate speculation. I just have a big disagreement with panthers55 viewpoint on training camp competition, team philosophy, and QBs. This is it in a nutshell.

panthers55 - Moore will come into camp as the starter, if he continues his half-ass work ethic, Delhomme will probably be named starter(with a tighter leash). Other than that, they will both be competing for starting jobs. Let's see how they both perform in camp(wait and see approach). Delhomme would probably be a solid back-up.

and this is how I see it...

AceMan - Moore is already the starter...just not announced yet. I don't see Jake as competition due to my belief he is a horrible QB and the fact that the fans won't accept him as a starting QB no matter what. But, we have no insurance policy behind Moore if Delhomme is the back-up. No one trusts Jake and Fox won't start a rookie/low FA over Delhomme. Therefore, either Moore plays well or we're in the SAME situation as 2009. I want Delhomme to get cut and to bring in a FA so there is at least hope that we have a proper insurance policy in case something happens to Moore(bad play or injury).

I feel like we're trying to bring Delhomme up and make him feel better by saying he is "competing" for a starting job. I don't hear guys like Kerry Collins competing with Vince Young. I don't hear about 13 mil back-ups who everyone knows will be gone next year either. Moore has completely outplayed Delhomme. If we want competition for Moore, we have to bring in a decent FA QB. Delhomme is not competition. Not only that, he is not a good QB anymore. If it is ever announced that we have actual competition between Delhomme and Moore at training camp, I will be pissed because that is just a ploy to make Delhomme look better.

I fully expect it to be announced that there is 'open competition' in camp, just like it was announced in 2003. It wasn't true then, and I have no reason to believe it'll be true now.

In the end, I believe Moore will be the starter, and it'll actually happen with help from Delhomme, who'll act as a mentor (he's already begun).

[AceMan]

Again, no, there wasn't any competition because Fox didn't see the need for one. He believed he had an established starter, a capable backup and a good enough number three. And truthfully, it wasn't that bad a depth chart even if Delhomme failed. It's not like anyone plans to lose their number two in week one.

Well, we're essentially agreeing so I'mma drop this one.

Udogg already addressed it in a prior post. No one watching camp would have said Delhomme was the worst of the QBs there. You really don't have anything to stand on with this point. Yes, Delhomme looked bad in week one. But no, there weren't any clear signs that it would be this bad.

Watch the 2nd half of 2008. Raiders game, Bucs game, and Arizona playoff game comes to mind. This was not that much of a surprise. That's the only reason I brought this up...because Delhomme's bad play shouldn't have been that much of a surprise.

Here's Zod's post...

When he says "not a football player" he's referring to Moore's attitude and approach to the game. That's not a personal dislike, just a belief that Moore didn't have the kind of personality that would make him a good leader and football player. As odd as it sounds, "football player" is generally meant as a compliment when a coach says it (helps to know a little "coachspeak").

That makes it personal IMO. Would we have put in McCown if he didn't get hurt? Who knows...probably...all I know is the main goal for every team is to try to make the Super Bowl or playoffs to a lesser extent. You don't sacrifice that goal because you don't like one's personality. You've already "punished" him by putting him 3rd on the depth chart anyway. It's the same situation the Titans had this year. You don't think they regret not putting Vince Young in sooner when Collins was clearly failing? If you are failing at QB, you try other options. I think we all agree that Fox started Delhomme too long though.

And the quote in question from the blog....

That's not saying "I couldn't bring myself to bench Jake". That's saying "I couldn't put all the blame on him. If I change him, I also need to change other spots.

It's been shown repeatedly that the whole "fake injury" thing was false. There were journalists and even people on here who have access to the medical records and were able to verify that it's a legit injury.

If the injury was real, then it only makes it worse don'tcha think?

It reminds me of the Foster/Williams deal. I'm sorry, but a good coach would not keep a player in who is clearly failing. You hear about all kinds of players who got benched for bad play (This year: J. Porter, K. Rhodes, A. Thomas, Osi, etc.). If Foster didn't get injured, Williams might have never gotten his true chance. It seems that in Fox's system, you have to wait on an injury then make him look like a jackass to get a true chance. Imagine if Godfrey came back and continued to play like crap after S. Martin played so well in spot-duty...Fox needs to give these guys a true chance. I think this all falls under Fox being "overloyal" which we all can agree on.

I fully expect it to be announced that there is 'open competition' in camp, just like it was announced in 2003. It wasn't true then, and I have no reason to believe it'll be true now.

In the end, I believe Moore will be the starter, and it'll actually happen with help from Delhomme, who'll act as a mentor (he's already begun).

See, this is the big fundamental difference I have with the QB situation. It's how I view Delhomme and the QB situation compared to other people. I expect it to be announced there is "open competition" as well. I just think it is a punk move by our Panthers FO and/or Fox to "save a fallen hero" or make Delhomme look better. There will be no competition because people will not accept Delhomme back as a starter. Like I said, Delhomme could play like Peyton Mannning in training camp...no one is going to accept him back as a starter. The fans would bury this franchise if Delhomme started even one game. If I'm JR, is this what I want for a small market team before a lockout?

What I like to do is view things on other teams with similiar situations. Imagine Jeff Fisher of the Titans announcing there will be open competition between V.Young and Collins. As an outsider looking in, I'm thinking WTF?! Collins is not even a challenge to Young at this point. Young completely outplayed him AND has youth on his side and the skill set to be above-average to great. Why challenge him with a older guy who was playing horrible before and was only average to begin with.

Anyway, I would believe in "open competition", fans would want one guy to win, but would be generally okay if the other guy beats him out. But, NO ONE is rooting for Delhomme to beat out Moore. I don't hear one person saying it would be okay if Delhomme beat out Moore in camp and started the 2010 season.(Except for those to add the stipulation that Fox pull Delhomme if we continued to suck). Deep down, we all want Moore to win and we know Delhomme is not good and know Delhomme will be gone...more than likely out of the league next year. That is not open competition. That is trying to make a failure look somewhat decent. Basically, trying to sprinkle glitter on a pile of crap.

I pray that Matt Montana...I mean Moore succeeds, because we're positioning ourselves to put all of our hopes for next season onto him aka putting all of our eggs in one basket. If Moore plays bad or is injured for extended amount of time...the season is OVER. I think Delhomme's input would have little effect on Moore's progress, but it would make a great story...and I fully expect a story on that.