Mayock on Gabbert

[MHS831]

Honestly how would you possibly know. Did you ever have a conversation with him?? Who knows if he can read a defense. I don't know nuclear physics either but that doesn't mean I can't learn or am stupid because I don't.

That kind of uninformed bias speaks to another kind of ignorance.

I don't know how smart he is because I have never talked to him. Nor do you all know that he is smart. Ha! Now you guys are in the arena you should be investigating. Please read all of this before responding.

I think he has shown the propensity to make stupid personal decisions. Or was the cheating ordeal that caused him to transfer to a junior college not his fault? Why did he try to destroy the evidence (stolen computer) AFTER police had taken the serial # off it? How could he NOT know that his father was his college agent and why would an intelligent person call himself an ICON as a result of 14 college games when he knows he has baggage and has not played a down in the NFL? All examples of stupidity.

But stupid off the field is not always the same as stupid on the field. Can CN break down a defense? If so, where did he learn it? AT UF? no. Jr college? no. Auburn? Not in that system. Was he born with this knowlege?

But you huggers want evidence that he DOES NOT know how to read an NFL defense. I would say that you could be the smartest medical student ever, but if you have not been trained in brain surgery, you probably cannot do it. Here is your evidence:

1. Auburn's offense is known for its simplicity. 1 Presnap read. Not open? Run or look to dump to outlet in flats. I coached high school offenses where we asked more from our QB.

2. THey would line up rather quickly and on many pass plays, Cam would look to the sideline. He was getting the play which was called based on the alignment of the defense. He then knew the pre-snap read and a simple progression.

In the NFL, your reads are pre snap and post-snap. Because play action is such a huge part of the offense, he would have to turn his BACK to the defense during the fake and then read the coverage afterwards. Has Cam ever shown the ability to read the coverage post snap from the shotgun? Watch tape and see how many times his head switches from one receiver to another while in the pocket. Good luck with that.

Look, I am sure you all have made your decisions. When NFL experts like Mayock and former Personnel directors point out things and you all call them stupid, I don't expect to change your minds with logic and common sense.

[teeray]

The bigger concern for me is that if the CBA drags on for a few more months it makes no sense to draft a quarterback at all since they will get little work and be of no benefit this year. Given that, we would actually be more likely to take a position ready guy like Peterson or Green and wait on a Qb for next year. I think whether or not the CBA gets settled will have a lot more to do with who we pick up then whether or not he can read defenses.

Panther55 I think you are one of the most reasonable people on this site and I appreciate everything you post.

But I disagree with you on this point.

I think if the CBA drags on it makes us more likely to draft a QB.

My reasoning is that if you don't take a QB you lose all control over who you bring in to compete with Jimmy Clausen. And if they want to fulfill their commitment to bring in competition but they can't address it before the draft it could end up in a situation where either no one actually makes it here or we overpay, either in salary or draft picks, to get a guy in here.

In order to truly control your own destiny, if there is no CBA don't you have to take a QB??

[firstdayfan]

Regardless of the simplicity of the offense I think people don't remember that he was only in it ONE year. Of course he had to get checks from the sideline...the guy hadn't spent two years learning the offense like most junior QBs. And he still ran that offense very effectively against the SEC defenses. Give the kid a break. It's not like all the "reads" clausen made in college gave him any advantage in the NFL.

[MHS831]

Cam Nuthuggers: When 50% of the first round QBs succeed in the NFL (i posted the link to verify this percentage on another thread--look it up if you don't believe it) and the majority of the busts do so because they cannot comprehend the complexities of the passing game when most are very intelligent players, how can you intelligently begin to promote picking a player who has done stupid things and has no experience in complex offenses?

Do you buy cars that are dependable and made by companies with solid reputations or do you like the shiny ones?

[Sch25]

If any of you are looking for some film on Newton, I found this website. You just have to take it with a grain of salt, as it is mostly highlights. Still shows a decent amount of snaps from every game though. http://whosright.com/poll/cameron-cam-newton-heisman-highlights

[Jackofalltrades]

If you watch the segment on Gabbert by Mayock you see why he's so high on him. He understands the position, he can read the D presnap, knows how to manipulate coverage and has the big arm.

Only concern is footwork coming from a spread.

[monstercat]

Cam Nuthuggers: When 50% of the first round QBs succeed in the NFL (i posted the link to verify this percentage on another thread--look it up if you don't believe it) and the majority of the busts do so because they cannot comprehend the complexities of the passing game when most are very intelligent players, how can you intelligently begin to promote picking a player who has done stupid things and has no experience in complex offenses?

Do you buy cars that are dependable and made by companies with solid reputations or do you like the shiny ones?

If that's your argument, then why should I believe that Andrew Luck is a sure thing? Hell, T.J Yates is well coached in an NFL style offense and is very dependable with 0 off the field issues, does that mean he is guaranteed to be better than Cam Newton, who has 10 times the talent?

[teeray]

I don't know how smart he is because I have never talked to him. Nor do you all know that he is smart. Ha! Now you guys are in the arena you should be investigating. Please read all of this before responding.

I think he has shown the propensity to make stupid personal decisions. Or was the cheating ordeal that caused him to transfer to a junior college not his fault? Why did he try to destroy the evidence (stolen computer) AFTER police had taken the serial # off it? How could he NOT know that his father was his college agent and why would an intelligent person call himself an ICON as a result of 14 college games when he knows he has baggage and has not played a down in the NFL? All examples of stupidity.

But stupid off the field is not always the same as stupid on the field. Can CN break down a defense? If so, where did he learn it? AT UF? no. Jr college? no. Auburn? Not in that system. Was he born with this knowlege?

But you huggers want evidence that he DOES NOT know how to read an NFL defense. I would say that you could be the smartest medical student ever, but if you have not been trained in brain surgery, you probably cannot do it. Here is your evidence:

1. Auburn's offense is known for its simplicity. 1 Presnap read. Not open? Run or look to dump to outlet in flats. I coached high school offenses where we asked more from our QB.

2. THey would line up rather quickly and on many pass plays, Cam would look to the sideline. He was getting the play which was called based on the alignment of the defense. He then knew the pre-snap read and a simple progression.

In the NFL, your reads are pre snap and post-snap. Because play action is such a huge part of the offense, he would have to turn his BACK to the defense during the fake and then read the coverage afterwards. Has Cam ever shown the ability to read the coverage post snap from the shotgun? Watch tape and see how many times his head switches from one receiver to another while in the pocket. Good luck with that.

Look, I am sure you all have made your decisions. When NFL experts like Mayock and former Personnel directors point out things and you all call them stupid, I don't expect to change your minds with logic and common sense.

First off you have good points.

I still have a hard time calling a kid stupid. I just think that is hateful and not measurable from our point of view. Has he made some bad decisions?? Sure. But it is still a long way from calling a kid stupid. Ben Roethlisberger isn't stupid and he made some bad decisions in his life. Stupid is just a hateful term.

The part about him having to turn his back to the defense and then re-engage is a fair point. But his offense has a lot of play action involved in it. More so than Mizzou's offense. There are a lot of instances when Cam Newton turned his back to the defense and re-engaged, so there is a lot of tape on that. Clausen ran an offense from under center that had a lot of play action and he hasn't adjusted. Neither did Leinart. Or Brady Quinn. Yet Bradford has done well in that regard. So has Josh Freeman. And Dre Brees. So the offense he played in doesn't bother me as much as it does you in that regard.

I share your concern about his ability to make pre snap reads. I have that same concerns about any rookie QB though. No matter what college offense they come from there is a learning curve there. I haven't seen any evidence that QB coming from a pro style offense make that transition faster than QB's from other types of offense.

And in regards to your last paragraph, why is Mike Maycock's opinion and the former player personnel people's opinion you mentioned, hold a higher regard to you than people like Trent Dilfer, Gil Brandt, Bucky Brooks?? Or the at least six teams that have him rated number 1 overall??

Do they just not share the same "logic" and "common sense" that the guys who agree with you do??

You make really good points but I just don't think they are as big a concern as you do. And that seems to be the divide between us.

[monstercat]

If you watch the segment on Gabbert by Mayock you see why he's so high on him. He understands the position, he can read the D presnap, knows how to manipulate coverage and has the big arm.

Only concern is footwork coming from a spread.

It's not like it's hard to pick out 3 plays that make any decent player look good. Mayock even admits that 75% of Gabbert's passes were pretty much predetermined before the snap, and his highlights back that up.

Don't get me wrong though...if the Panthers like Gabbert more, then they should take him, but Mayock is clearly biased on this one.

[MHS831]

Regardless of the simplicity of the offense I think people don't remember that he was only in it ONE year. Of course he had to get checks from the sideline...the guy hadn't spent two years learning the offense like most junior QBs. And he still ran that offense very effectively against the SEC defenses. Give the kid a break. It's not like all the "reads" clausen made in college gave him any advantage in the NFL.

Don't assume that I am a Clausen supporter because I don't think Newton is worth the risk. I didn't like the pick. I would add that he was dropped into an impossible situation and he has not had enough time to develop before being thrown away.

I would be careful about using the fact that he was at Auburn one year as an excuse too. That in itself was due to his character issues. But you are right, mutliple years in a system at least gives you a better foundation, one that is essential in making a cognitive conversion from college to pros. Without that foundation, what is he going to use as a starting point for learning (See Piaget). Then there are the environmental influences on Cam, influences such as his father NCAA stuff), friends (stolen computer) and the moral and ethical issues that were illustrated by his cheating at UF and his remorseless comments about being an ICON. (See Psychologists Bronfenbrenner and Kohlberg to analyze him in these areas). Cam lacks the background to succeed in the NFL because he lacks developmental schema that will be required to relate new, complex learning with foundational, simplistic understanding engrained over time, his values have been compromised and he seems to bear no responsibility for it, and his environment has supported these deficiencies. Cam is in for a rude awaknening. He feels entitled in many ways worse than the way Clausen has been accused of entitlement.

This is why I think Cam is not worth the risk. Look under the hood. If you know what you are looking at, he would scare you.

[teeray]

Cam Nuthuggers: When 50% of the first round QBs succeed in the NFL (i posted the link to verify this percentage on another thread--look it up if you don't believe it) and the majority of the busts do so because they cannot comprehend the complexities of the passing game when most are very intelligent players, how can you intelligently begin to promote picking a player who has done stupid things and has no experience in complex offenses?

Do you buy cars that are dependable and made by companies with solid reputations or do you like the shiny ones?

You know what is funny about this stat?? People coming from a true "pro style offense" actually fail at a higher rate than the QB's not coming from pro style offenses. I don't know why but it is true.

I think it is because people assume that since they ran a pro offense in college it will easily translate to the pros, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

[firstdayfan]

Maybe it's bc we hold QB's to a higher regard but don't you think Steve smith has made dumb decisions throughout his career, or Big Ben, or Terrell owens, or Chad Johnson, but still these guys are good football players. When did this become even remotely important in terms of ability to play football?

Listen, I'm not endorsing cam newton but I think it should come down to his workout and how he handles himself in an interview. That's all that you can go off...if you wanna talk about college you have to include the fact that he has won at every level...you have to look at his TD to interception ratio...you have to look at his leadership and intangibles...those are the qualities I care about. Not whether or not he did something stupid in college. Hell there were people who want mike Vick and What he did is nothing compared to newton. A strong arm, TDs, and wins cures all stupid decisions.

Kerry Collins didn't have issues coming out of college and he quit on the team. It's not an exact science guys.

[MHS831]

If that's your argument, then why should I believe that Andrew Luck is a sure thing? Hell, T.J Yates is well coached in an NFL style offense and is very dependable with 0 off the field issues, does that mean he is guaranteed to be better than Cam Newton, who has 10 times the talent?

Are you serious? Luck has flawless character, extreme intelligence, and a skill set superior in nearly every way to Newton. The DEGREE OF RISK is my argument. I would say Luck has about a 90% chance of success in the NFL, Newton has a 30% chance, and Yates a 5% chance. Did I ever say guarantee, or was that your word?

[teeray]

I would be careful about using the fact that he was at Auburn one year as an excuse too. That in itself was due to his character issues. But you are right, mutliple years in a system at least gives you a better foundation, one that is essential in making a cognitive conversion from college to pros. Without that foundation, what is he going to use as a starting point for learning (See Piaget). Then there are the environmental influences on Cam, influences such as his father NCAA stuff), friends (stolen computer) and the moral and ethical issues that were illustrated by his cheating at UF and his remorseless comments about being an ICON. (See Psychologists Bronfenbrenner and Kohlberg to analyze him in these areas). Cam lacks the background to succeed in the NFL because he lacks developmental schema that will be required to relate new, complex learning with foundational, simplistic understanding engrained over time, his values have been compromised and he seems to bear no responsibility for it, and his environment has supported these deficiencies. Cam is in for a rude awaknening. He feels entitled in many ways worse than the way Clausen has been accused of entitlement.

And I would be careful to make these comments without not knowing the facts of each of these situations. You know what has been reported, but what is reported often times is disconnected with reality.

This stuff has a lot a media types passing judgments on this kid despite what has been proven or what may have actually happened.

All I can say is that the people who actually know this kid, love him. The people who have raised questions about him and his father has consistently come from people who either have very limited or no access to him. Not just coaches and teammates, but SID's, and teachers have been talking great about him (especially the ones form Blinn and Auburn). I think that should factor into any judgments on his character as well.

If he is a bad teammate why did they carry him off the field on their shoulders??