Go after Shedeur this offseason.

[LinvilleGorge]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I think he got a raw deal there too but don't know enough about his attitude or demeanor to comment. 

He's just competitive as hell. He wants to compete. I mean, the guy basically tanked his own draft status his final year in college playing like The Golden Calf of Bristol because that's what the Heels needed him to do to compete because we only had one D1 level WR on the roster and everyone was doubling him. I just can't see him ever being happy sitting around holding a clipboard. But if I was in his camp I'd be beating it into his head that a backup QB job is still one helluva job to have and to suck it up and do it if it comes down to it because it beats the hell out of going and getting a "real" job.

[Mr. Scot]

5 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I mean, again, based on what?

Kyler is tremendously more physically skilled, he sees the field far better, he is more efficient as a passer, his throwing mechanics are better, his decision making is better, etc, etc. He is a choker and he is brittle but those are basically the two minor advantages that Bryce has. 

Aside from that, literally nothing. 

I am asking WHY you think he is the better QB when almost every available measure that anyone could possibly use says quite the opposite?

Yeah, I wouldn't call being a choker "a minor disadvantage". That's kind of a big deal

(ditto the durability issues)

Basically, Murray is inconsistent, lousy under pressure, has lingering questions about his leadership/ work ethic and yes, isn't espresso durable.

Those aren't the kinds of things that necessarily show up on a stat sheet, but they do show up.

Edited 57 minutes ago by Mr. Scot

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, LinvilleGorge said:

He's just competitive as hell. He wants to compete. I just can't see him ever being happy sitting around holding a clipboard. But if I was in his camp I'd be beating it into his head that a backup QB job is still one helluva job to have and to suck it up and do it if it comes down to it because it beats the hell out of going and getting a "real" job.

He's not really getting much of a choice at the moment.

But on this we agree. I think he deserves a chance, and I'd be more than happy to see him get one here.

[kungfoodude]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Yeah, I wouldn't call being a choker "a minor disadvantage". That's kind of a big deal

(ditto the durability issues)

Basically, Murray is inconsistent, lousy under pressure, has lingering questions about his leadership/ work ethic and yes, isn't espresso durable.

Those aren't the kinds of things that necessarily show up on a stat sheet, but they do show up.

He is a choker with a much, much higher career winning percentage, so it has been fairly minor. If we called all Bryce's bad performances "choking" he would be nearing NFL career worst levels. So, yeah, pretty minor.

Okay, but Bryce is consistently bad and extremely bad under pressure. 

Those things have showed up on the stat sheet. It's been the 0.325 career winning percentage 

[LinvilleGorge]

26 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

Howell would be an instant upgrade at QB2 and a nice plan B if Bryce doesn't keep getting better.  He also should be pretty cheap and is still pretty young with a good ceiling.  I'd be happy with signing him this offseason.  I think he would fit nicely with DC from a personality viewpoint as well.  

I wish I knew what DC's scouting report on Howell was. He was the QB coach in Seattle at the time and they were scouting Howell pretty hard. So obviously DC either wasn't very high on him or lost those arguments in the draft room.

I will say the Seahawks had a pretty solid draft that year so it wasn't like they were picking bums over Howell. Their 3rd round pick has started all 42 games he's been healthy and their 4th round pick has started 32 games for them. So it very well could've been that DC was slamming the table for Howell but they simply had players higher on their board available.

[Proudiddy]

1 hour ago, Mr. Scot said:

For others? Don't know. I can't speak for them. 

As far as our experts picking Bryce, come on, dude. You know how that went down just as well as I do. You should also know that a good number of the people who were part of that decision (GM, Director of College Scouting, others) are no longer employed here. And the one guy who pretty much everyone believes disagreed with the decision was given his waking papers even before they were. 

I could make an argument that level of success sometimes masks deficiencies in play (i.e. Alabama quarterbacks) but even that argument is kind of pointless because we all know how Bryce got here. 

But my reason for bringing that up isn’t just specifically because of Bryce.  My point being, there are paid professionals who scout every day for a living.  Guys whose entire job is to comb over hours and hours of game film and travel the country to watch players in-person… and even these guys hitch their wagons (and careers) to players that had no business being picked where they were - Bryce just happens to be a prime example.  And as you mentioned, a lot of heads rolled for that decision.

But it illustrates my point - just as this thread does.  This may be the most poo reactions I’ve ever garnered for a post.  Why?  Because ego.  Because people want to be right and like to tell people about it.  People also don’t like to be wrong and be reminded they were.  It’s why reactions to this hypothetical are so strong.  The vast majority are poo’ing me or getting in their zingers as part of the cliquish mentality that comes with said ego-driven behavior - many are so emotionally anti-Deion that they so desperately want Shedeur to fail.  They don’t want to give him credit when he plays well.  And they certainly don’t want him coming here, whether he plays well or not because their hope is he’s a flash in the pan and ultimately flops.  Then, there’s the faction of fans who are still clinging on to the hope of all hopes that Bryce has finally figured it out (AGAIN), and this time, there’s no looking back.  So, then, they can tell everyone how they rode for him since college and kept believing when no one else did, even when he was struggling to throw for 125 yards in a game, or turning the ball over 3 times before halftime.  So me presenting the idea of using mid-late draft capital to acquire a rookie QB, on a rookie contract, who just overcame tons of adversity to string together several quality starts and, most recently, put up some very impressive numbers is met with one-liners and insults.  

Why?

Because they want to be right.  They are emotional.  Be it they want Bryce to succeed so they don’t want real competition in here, or they just want Shedeur to fail - it’s strictly emotional.  Because again, statistically, they have no grounds to stand on.  Which is why I asked if it isn’t statistical, then what is it?  It’s ego.  It’s emotion.  Just like all those scouts bet the farm on Bryce and paid with their jobs for it.  They staked their jobs on account of their egos that they were right.  We’re on a message board, so obviously the stakes are non-existent, but people still want to be able to say “told you so.”  I get it.  But I don’t care.  I’m not emotional about it.  I loved Deion as a kid.  I’m pulling for Shedeur, no doubt.  But I’m also capable of removing sentiment and emotion and if Shedeur stunk, I’d wish him well in his future endeavors.  Likewise, I did NOT want Bryce.  But we drafted him.  Thus, I removed my personal feelings about it in hopes that our team got it right…  and although I was probably quicker to react when he failed (the “told you so” factor), I still hoped for the best.  I still hope for the best - but again, at this juncture, we have seen enough to know that competition at the QB spot is needed this offseason regardless of how we, and Bryce, finish the year.

And to further my point, even the discussions now taking place in this thread regarding Howell and Murray - again, if it’s not statistically-based, then what is it?  We have gulfs and valleys between opinions on these guys, but statistically (and I would argue visually), they are superior to Bryce.  Yet, we still have people arguing that Bryce is better or deserves the starting spot handed to him for 2026.  It’s folly.  It’s ego.  It’s emotion.  And I’m not directing that towards you, I’m saying we’re all susceptible to like what we like and dislike what we don’t.  I just find it humorous to see such strong reactions to Shedeur when we have people still lobbying for an unmitigated path to the 2026 starting gig for Bryce after 2.5 years of proof he is the worst starter in the NFL.  Regardless, again, I’m hoping he goes on a magical run and we win a Super Bowl this season lol.  Even then - bring in the comp.

[ForJimmy]

4 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I wish I knew what DC's scouting report on Howell was. He was the QB coach in Seattle at the time and they were scouting Howell pretty hard. So obviously DC either wasn't very high on him or lost those arguments in the draft room.

I will say the Seahawks had a pretty solid draft that year so it wasn't like they were picking bums over Howell. Their 3rd round pick has started all 42 games he's been healthy and their 4th round pick has started 32 games for them. So it very well could've been that DC was slamming the table for Howell but they simply had players higher on their board available.

Looks like they already had the QB position addressed with Geno Smith and Drew Lock and they probably didn't scout too much or see any need to use a pick on a QB3 rookie since the main focus was getting Geno comfortable.  I doubt there is anyone left on that staff, but I believe Howell was in Seattle last year.  If he still knows anyone in their office he might get a decent read on him.

[mrBdawg]

16 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I mean, again, based on what?

Kyler is tremendously more physically skilled, he sees the field far better, he is more efficient as a passer, his throwing mechanics are better, his decision making is better, etc, etc. He is a choker and he is brittle but those are basically the two minor advantages that Bryce has. 

Aside from that, literally nothing. 

I am asking WHY you think he is the better QB when almost every available measure that anyone could possibly use says quite the opposite?

What makes you say those things about Kyler? What makes you believe Kyler sees the field better? His decision making? Where are you getting that? It’s just your opinion? Is it emotion based?

Kyler has played awful this year. I’ve watched nearly every Cardinals game due to where I’m located for work. He’s been complete garbage this year. There’s a reason he got benched, it’s because he has some good weapons and a good scheme and could do NOTHING with it. Brissett has played far better in that offense.
 

Bryce is pretty obviously the better quarterback at this point in their careers. You won’t find many to back you up on your stance outside of this website.

[Mr. Scot]

4 minutes ago, Proudiddy said:

But my reason for bringing that up isn’t just specifically because of Bryce.  My point being, there are paid professionals who scout every day for a living.  Guys whose entire job is to comb over hours and hours of game film and travel the country to watch players in-person… and even these guys hitch their wagons (and careers) to players that had no business being picked where they were - Bryce just happens to be a prime example.  And as you mentioned, a lot of heads rolled for that decision.

But it illustrates my point - just as this thread does.  This may be the most poo reactions I’ve ever garnered for a post.  Why?  Because ego.  Because people want to be right and like to tell people about it.  People also don’t like to be wrong and be reminded they were.  It’s why reactions to this hypothetical are so strong.  The vast majority are poo’ing me or getting in their zingers as part of the cliquish mentality that comes with said ego-driven behavior - many are so emotionally anti-Deion that they so desperately want Shedeur to fail.  They don’t want to give him credit when he plays well.  And they certainly don’t want him coming here, whether he plays well or not because their hope is he’s a flash in the pan and ultimately flops.  Then, there’s the faction of fans who are still clinging on to the hope of all hopes that Bryce has finally figured it out (AGAIN), and this time, there’s no looking back.  So, then, they can tell everyone how they rode for him since college and kept believing when no one else did, even when he was struggling to throw for 125 yards in a game, or turning the ball over 3 times before halftime.  So me presenting the idea of using mid-late draft capital to acquire a rookie QB, on a rookie contract, who just overcame tons of adversity to string together several quality starts and, most recently, put up some very impressive numbers is met with one-liners and insults.  

Why?

Because they want to be right.  They are emotional.  Be it they want Bryce to succeed so they don’t want real competition in here, or they just want Shedeur to fail - it’s strictly emotional.  Because again, statistically, they have no grounds to stand on.  Which is why I asked if it isn’t statistical, then what is it?  It’s ego.  It’s emotion.  Just like all those scouts bet the farm on Bryce and paid with their jobs for it.  They staked their jobs on account of their egos that they were right.  We’re on a message board, so obviously the stakes are non-existent, but people still want to be able to say “told you so.”  I get it.  But I don’t care.  I’m not emotional about it.  I loved Deion as a kid.  I’m pulling for Shedeur, no doubt.  But I’m also capable of removing sentiment and emotion and if Shedeur stunk, I’d wish him well in his future endeavors.  Likewise, I did NOT want Bryce.  But we drafted him.  Thus, I removed my personal feelings about it in hopes that our team got it right…  and although I was probably quicker to react when he failed (the “told you so” factor), I still hoped for the best.  I still hope for the best - but again, at this juncture, we have seen enough to know that competition at the QB spot is needed this offseason regardless of how we, and Bryce, finish the year.

And to further my point, even the discussions now taking place in this thread regarding Howell and Murray - again, if it’s not statistically-based, then what is it?  We have gulfs and valleys between opinions on these guys, but statistically (and I would argue visually), they are superior to Bryce.  Yet, we still have people arguing that Bryce is better or deserves the starting spot handed to him for 2026.  It’s folly.  It’s ego.  It’s emotion.  And I’m not directing that towards you, I’m saying we’re all susceptible to like what we like and dislike what we don’t.  I just find it humorous to see such strong reactions to Shedeur when we have people still lobbying for an unmitigated path to the 2026 starting gig for Bryce after 2.5 years of proof he is the worst starter in the NFL.  Regardless, again, I’m hoping he goes on a magical run and we win a Super Bowl this season lol.  Even then - bring in the comp.

Football quarterback is universally considered one of the hardest positions in all of sports to evaluate. Even knowledgeable guys make the wrong choice plenty of times (see: Beathard, Robert)

As far as Shedeur, I don't think he's gonna be a great NFL player, but when you get right down to it unless he plays for us (or directly against us) I don't really give a sh-t.

[LinvilleGorge]

1 minute ago, ForJimmy said:

Looks like they already had the QB position addressed with Geno Smith and Drew Lock and they probably didn't scout too much or see any need to use a pick on a QB3 rookie since the main focus was getting Geno comfortable.  I doubt there is anyone left on that staff, but I believe Howell was in Seattle last year.  If he still knows anyone in their office he might get a decent read on him.

I would've loved to have had Howell get a shot to play under Pete Carroll but Carroll has obviously developed some pretty bad Geno Smith goggles in his final years and it might bounce him out of the league.

[Mr. Scot]

3 minutes ago, mrBdawg said:

What makes you say those things about Kyler? What makes you believe Kyler sees the field better? His decision making? Where are you getting that? It’s just your opinion? Is it emotion based?

Kyler has played awful this year. I’ve watched nearly every Cardinals game due to where I’m located for work. He’s been complete garbage this year. There’s a reason he got benched, it’s because he has some good weapons and a good scheme and could do NOTHING with it. Brissett has played far better in that offense.

Bryce is pretty obviously the better quarterback at this point in their careers. You won’t find many to back you up on your stance outside of this website.

You have my sympathy for having to watch those games

As far as the evaluations, I think a lot of times it's just assumed that someone who has better stats is better in areas like these 

Again though, I don't care about stats. I don't even look at them outside discussions like this. 

Edited 33 minutes ago by Mr. Scot

[LinvilleGorge]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

You have my sympathy for having to watch those games

As far as the evaluations, I think a lot of times it's just assumed that someone who has better stats is better in areas like these 

Again though, I don't care about stats. I don't even look at them outside discussions like this. 

I mean, without some sort of concrete metrics you're basically just left with a pure opinion argument. I would expect a better player to be metrically superior at something. When one guy is measurably superior across the board it's speaking pretty loudly.

[Mr. Scot]

Just now, LinvilleGorge said:

I mean, without some sort of concrete metrics you're basically just left with a pure opinion argument. I would expect a better player to be metrically superior at something.

Stats can be deceiving. And in football especially they rarely tell the whole story.

I'm always gonna trust my eyes over a stat sheet. 

[LinvilleGorge]

Just now, Mr. Scot said:

Stats can be deceiving. And in football especially they rarely tell the whole story.

I'm always gonna trust my eyes over a stat sheet. 

I'm not saying they tell the whole story, but when a guy is measurably better at everything it seems logical to conclude that... well, he's better. It's pretty rare to compare two players where one is measurably better across the board and try to argue that the lesser performer is actually the better player. You'd expect to be able to find something to hang your hat on in the numbers.