An interesting quote (Re: the effort question)

[Fireball77]

It's not so cut and dried.

No it isn't...that's why it's so hard to be consistently good talent evaluators.

I think guys like Moss & Jenkins are cases where you have to have the right mix on the team for it to work, and sometimes it comes down to the guy hating where he was so much that the following year (s) when they are where they want to be, it "allows" them to do better.

[Panthro]

when they are where they want to be, it "allows" them to do better.

Which still amazes me considering the $$$$ they are getting paid lol

[Fireball77]

Panthro, I hear you but think of it this way, it's just like any other business. People are people...be they NFL players or not. Money isn't always what makes a person MOST happy or MOST motivated. And though they are getting big bucks, if the $$ is guaranteed they get the bucks regardless. And their $$ is on a far higher plane than regular peeps' salaries are, but they are the "norm" for their profession and that's the only context they have for competition/comparison. It's not how some people think of it which is more like "OMGZ!!!!1! WHATIFIHADTOBEAGARBAGEMANINSTEADFOR35KOHNOESIZSOLUCKIES2BNFLPLAYER!!111111!11"

[Mr. Scot]

No it's not, and it probably turns guys like Hurney gray at an early age. Look at the Titans. They just got an amazing year out of Haynesworth, but they're reluctant to pay him based on that year because they're afraid he won't go all out once he gets the money.

How do you predict effort? You can't.

Exactly the point.

"The Tortoise and the Hare" is a great story, but it's a story.

In reality, you actually have to wrestle with whether 75% of Julius Peppers is better than 100% of Aaron Kampman.

(they didn't cover this type of equation when I took Algebra I)

[Darth Biscuit]

Do you want players like Randy Moss and Kris Jenkins, guys who are head and shoulders above everyone around them in talent but who don't see the need to go all out to maximize that talent?

Or would you rather have guys like Jerry Rice and Sam Mills, players who may not be blessed with the God-given talent but who have the ethic to outwork everyone around them?

We arguably have such a dichotomy on the team right now in Dwayne Jarrett (tall and talented but not the hardest worker) and Steve Smith (short and decent, but a killer work ethic).

Well I for one want both, but I know you can't have that... I think that Steve Smith is the perfect example of what you're asking... He has plenty of raw talent, but not the size you usually see at WR in the NFL, but he busts his ass and works hard and he's one of the best in the game. I would rather have a team full of moderately talented guys who work hard than a team of superstars who loaf half the time...

[thefuzz]

IMO, I want, out of the 22 starters, 18 of those guys that go all out all the time, and 4 or so guys that are supremely talented and can turn it on.

I think that to win, you have to have those highly talented players on your roster. And to win consistently, you have to also have the "high motor" guys to motivate the slackers.

[Mr. Scot]

"Lesser Talent/Higher Effort" is arguably the Patriots model.

"Higher Talent/Lesser Effort" would be the M.O. of the Cowboys.

No question that Patriots have had more success lately, but the Cowboys of the 90s (with more Johnson and less Jones) were dominant to an even greater extent than the Patriots during their run.

Throw in that the Pats were kind of sitting at a plateau for a while until they acquired Randy Moss, and what kind of player is Moss? Yep.

I know the Sam Mills type player is the kind of guy we all admire and the Randy Moss type is the kind we tend to loathe, but it's really not an easy question to answer.

[Mr. Scot]

IMO, I want, out of the 22 starters, 18 of those guys that go all out all the time, and 4 or so guys that are supremely talented and can turn it on.

I think that to win, you have to have those highly talented players on your roster. And to win consistently, you have to also have the "high motor" guys to motivate the slackers.

Reasonable.

But with that in mind, back to the original topic.

The question for everyone is, feelings aside, would you want Julius back here, even knowing he might never play to his true potential?

[VA Panther Fan]

Reasonable.

But with that in mind, back to the original topic.

The question for everyone is, feelings aside, would you want Julius back here, even knowing he might never play to his true potential?

I think his "effort" in the playoff game vs. Arizona answers that question for me.

[Chubbs McGee]

Geez. At this point, I think there is almost no chance of him coming back. I don't think I want him back, either.

[mountainpantherfan]

"Lesser Talent/Higher Effort" is arguably the Patriots model.

"Higher Talent/Lesser Effort" would be the M.O. of the Cowboys.

No question that Patriots have had more success lately, but the Cowboys of the 90s (with more Johnson and less Jones) were dominant to an even greater extent than the Patriots during their run.

Throw in that the Pats were kind of sitting at a plateau for a while until they acquired Randy Moss, and what kind of player is Moss? Yep.

I know the Sam Mills type player is the kind of guy we all admire and the Randy Moss type is the kind we tend to loathe, but it's really not an easy question to answer.

Bottom line is that you are going to have all three types of players (tortise, hare and the hare that gives effort) and the key to this is the coach. Johnson was able to win with that type of team in Dallas in the 90's. Parcelles and now Phillips just don't have the coaching abilities or even personalities to win with that type of team.

[Fireball77]

HCs and GMs have to have a certain bunch of characteristics that are MUSTS in THEIR players and get THEIR TYPE OF GUYS. Johnson had that. And truly had he not gotten the loot from the Walker trade, perhaps he wouldn't have. He was also "thisclose" to keeping Walsh over Aikman because Walsh was HIS guy.

In all ways I have ever seen Moss discussed as a Patriot, he is THEIR TYPE OF GUY (smart player, hard working in practice, loves the game, a good mentor to the other WRs). Moreover, that's what they heard when they vetted him with ex-coaches and ex-teammates of his whose opinions they trusted. Same with Dillon. Now, would I have picked either of them even based on that? Hell no. But they seem to know and stick to what they value. And their contracts as Patriots the first year each was there definitely were low risk. And so was what the Pats gave up pick wise (4th rounder) to get Moss (Dillon was a 2nd rounder which is on the edge of risky). I also doubt very highly that they would have brought either of those guys in when they were just starting to build their team because their lockerroom wasn't well established nor was the coaching staff.

[mantal]

I know the Sam Mills type player is the kind of guy we all admire and the Randy Moss type is the kind we tend to loathe, but it's really not an easy question to answer.

Put a Randy Moss type player on our team and everybody will be oh hell's yes!!! They won't admit to it, but it would happen and was illustrated just a couple of years ago with Keyshawn. Before we got him, most were saying "no way would I want him here". Once we got him everybody thought we were going to be worldbeaters. Then everyone turned on him when he got cut. It's what we do...

[Mr. Scot]

Put a Randy Moss type player on our team and everybody will be oh hell's yes!!! They won't admit to it, but it would happen and was illustrated just a couple of years ago with Keyshawn. Before we got him, most were saying "no way would I want him here". Once we got him everybody thought we were going to be worldbeaters. Then everyone turned on him when he got cut. It's what we do...

Valid.

But objectively speaking, do you want a guy who has said something like "Imagine if I worked hard?"

Yeah, he said it in college, but there's evidence that attitude is still there.