Football Outsiders updated Panthers statistics

[pawsandclaws]

This threads TYF: (total yawn factor)

Total posts/Total lines

110/5,000=.022

Forum wide average= .25

It is generally considered by experts that anything below .10 induces sleep. .022 could induce a coma.

[rayzor]

ugh.

For the life of me, I can't figure out what it is about you that rubs so many people the wrong way?

haha dude, you just keep proving how wrong you are... I don't even know what your problem is, but from each of your posts to the next one, here are multiple parts of your quotes showing you are wrong. Since you are just trolling me now, and really it's sad that you are resorting to this but whatever, that's fine. When you can find an actual game example of YPP that agrees with your bizarro world system, feel free to come back.

(Since you may have reading comprehension issues, that means that 1815/167 = 10.87. It's too bad the author forgets that a decent chunk of those 167 points were directly generated by special teams, yet none of those 1815 come from special teams. Sokay, he does admit that the 49ers are a team effort)

As to why I didn't respond to you, I was just giving you more rope to hang yourself with. It's more fun this way. Keep on going, find more quotes and links that prove you know nothing about YPP.

Go ahead, break the Titans' game against us down for me. Show me where special teams yards matters. Go ahead. Try.

I was eating dinner so that is why I didn't respond. You were selective with quotes you provided links for. But let's look at some of your quotes

Also says:

Plus this article isn't even talking about YPP is it??

And:

Is a random blogspot post that has a tag line of: "Because Chris Simms still started the 2001 Big 12 Championship Game, and you can't do anything about it." So obviously a fan blog so take that with a grain of salt.

No link on this one:

This is describing how you can use YPP to predict a score for handicapping. Not about offensive efficiency.

CNNSI:

You nearly quoted this whole article except you deleted one important sentence :confused:

Not many are saying YPP is useless or bad. We're just saying it's scoring efficiency, which is so much more than just offensive efficiency.

There is absolutely no accounting of the yards from a punt return that goes for a touchdown. The only impact that special teams yards have is in making the field smaller, meaning that the offense doesn't need to travel as far to score. This is virtually the opposite of if special teams yards were added in in some form...

I feel like a broken record.

One yard line is not the .1 inch marker. If an offense starts at the one yard line as you started they go 99 yards, not 100. Your math sucks ass

you'll never get him to see. you are wasting your time.

[PantherProwler]

Not many are saying YPP is useless or bad. We're just saying it's scoring efficiency, which is so much more than just offensive efficiency.

There is absolutely no accounting of the yards from a punt return that goes for a touchdown. The only impact that special teams yards have is in making the field smaller, meaning that the offense doesn't need to travel as far to score. This is virtually the opposite of if special teams yards were added in in some form...

I feel like a broken record.

You keep missing the fact that's why it works. It counts points and the deviation of 100% efficiency.

100% efficiency = 100/7 =14.28 for a 7 point score.

The ratio starts there. It doesn't have to add them in. You missed this in my earlier explanation. Any part of our offense, whether our special teams, our offense offense, or a punt returner that travels the full 100 yards is going to have to have a 14.28 efficiency ratio for that 7 points.

So when your punt returner scores 7 points, your total scoring offense's ratio is 100% or league average.

1 score at 100% efficiency yards.

It accounts for them, because everything starts at 14.2 for 7 points. And that's what make it work.

You see when your offense gets the ball at the 20 yard line, somebody turned over the ball to them and gave them "free" points per yards. It can either be our special teams, or our defense. If it's less than 100 yards the team's total offensive efficiency ratio goes down, example 10.2 and you are operating at +100%. If it gets a 3 and out...the wasted yards make that number go up and your offense operates at sub 100%.

But if an offense, or a special teams unit travels the full 100 yards and gets 7 points it's credited with a 14.2 efficiency ratio. 100% efficiency.

2. The other special team yards that are not scored. Are also accounted. Because what you keep missing is this stat doesn't count yards. It counts a team's efficiency of scoring points from yards.

To explain why in linear simple math: 1 st down = 10 yards.

10 yards = 0.6 points(6 point score).

When our special teams gets the ball in the end zone and takes it to the 20 but gets "stopped", it accumulated 1.2 points per 20 yards. When it got stopped, it didn't lose the points...it passes them on to the offense. The offense field position at the 20 yard line is worth 1.2 points. So it starts off with 1.2 points. When it gets to the 30 it accumulated 1.8 points per 30 yards. When it makes it all the way across the field it crossed the full field and gets credit all 6 points when it enters the end zone.

The special team's yards nor points were never lost. They were given to our own offense making it more efficient. they scored 7 points in only 80 yards. This increases our total scoring offense's efficiency ratio. 80/7 =11.4 Because only the parts of the team who scores get counted towards total scoring offense's efficiency. Whatever yards go to our opponent they go against our scoring efficiency ratio(whether from special teams or from offense).

But if you were to calculate YPP for our special teams they were at 14.28 ypp from the first touchdown return, but now you add the 20 yards they gave to our offense and it makes their ratio go down(if you were to work with that one). So it hurts their YPP but helped our "scoring offense" which is why they are just transfered. We are looking at total scoring offense ypp. Not just offense ypp or just special teams ypp.

It measures "scoring offense" compared to 100% efficiency of 14.28 for 7 points. Whoever does it passes the ratio over to the team's total offensive efficiency!

14.28 from special teams first drive + 11. 42 = 25.7/ 2= 12.85. It increased.

In other words, it counts whatever part of our scoring offense contributed to our scoring offense efficiency on that drive. A special team's offensive yards however never have to be counted. Their points, and efficiency ratio, are directly transfered to the next team that scores. And when it's our own, we don't count those yards or points as "lost". They got transferred to the next team that makes up our scoring offense. They are STILL ours.

That's how YPP works.

Oth, if our offense turns over the ball at the 50 yard line it's worth about 3.8 ypp. All those points and yards, their efficiency ratio is given to our opponent. The yards count against our offense, as well as against our defense because now our oppponent has 3.8 points at the 50 yard line against our defense. These points never go away until someone crosses the endzone or the game ends.

All the yards our special teams and offense accumulated are lost or better said didn't lead to points, so they are counted so the efficiency ratio lowers. When it turned over the ball the 30 yards our offense gained goes against our total offense, but the other 20 do not, because those were not lost they were passed on to our offense. However, the total 50 yards lost by our offense goes against our scoring offense number, and the points get turned over to the opponent. The total 50 yards they gave up go to our opponent and also against our defense ypp. Our defense now has 7.1ypp(50/7) inefficiency if our opponent scores a touchdown. All they can do is force a takeaway and give the points back to our offense.

This is how ypp is actually calculated. That is the logic behind it.

No yards are unaccounted. Because it doesn't count yards. It counts points per yards, it counts EFFICIENCY ratios in terms of points per yards. They are credited to whoever scores. Or scoring offenses(whoever finally crosses the red-zone).

[chef17]

A fumble recovered in the endzone for a TD is counted but that is no way that can possibly be seen as "scoring offense"

[mav1234]

you really just took one of the simplest calculations ever (net passing yards + rushing yards / total points scored by the team) and totally raped it. there's no point when you're just going to completely make poo up. "YPP is the square root of a team's punt returns minus the average field position of a visiting team playing at Lambaugh field in the summer of 1967 times the number of possessions resulting in a touchdown minus the deviation from the scoring deficiency of the defense." no. no it's not. YPP is the yards a team generates on offense divided by the total points the team scores. That's it. That's all. It's not a deviation from some average.

[PantherProwler]

A fumble recovered in the endzone for a TD is counted but that is no way that can possibly be seen as "scoring offense"

A fumble recovery by whom? Our defense? Our offense?

Scoring offense = any part of our team that scores a point.

Special teams offense.

offense.

Special teams defense(when they get an interception) = they are now part of our scoring offense. They are advancing the ball for us right?

Any part of our team that has the ball and scores a point makes up a our total scoring efficiency.

The parts that you guys miss is the limited examples you bring up, are usually very, very rare. And those are the little ways our defensive side of the ball improves our offensive efficiency. But the #1 team who is responsible for our offensive efficiency is the offense itself.

Nothing hurts our team's scoring efficiency more than when our offense turns over the ball(and this includes punting or on downs not just interceptions and fumbles). Because remember, our special teams offense turns over the ball to our own offense. They don't lose points or yards. They get transferred to improve our offense's efficiency.

So if our offense goes from 20 to 20, they lost 60 yards. And if they go the full field the next time(their scoring drive continues and the old yards still count because the scoring drive continues from where it left off). If they score it's now 160/7 =22.85 This makes you one of the worst ranked offenses in the league. One drive to our opponents 20 from our 20 and a failure to score drops you to the bottom of the league for that drive.

But recovered fumbles. Interceptions. Those are more rare occurrences. They don't compare to how much our offense hurts itself by traveling 80 yards and turning over the ball or getting a 3 and out.

And the fumble example. If you meant defense. The points get credited to our offense(because they were a part of our scoring offense), but since it was recovered in the end-zone no yards are credited to our offense, just the points so it HIGHLY increases their efficiency. At the same time if it was our defense, it highly increases its own efficiency because it killed a 100 yard drive for our opponent. So it increases its ypp(bigger is better for defense) and prevented a score on their stat sheet.

And if you follow the logic of ypp as it's meant to described, you'll notice an amazing thing about this stat: it actually describes the game of football! The back and forth journey of the ball. Whoever carries it into the endzone gets credited with the points and all the work done before them by the other sides goes against those that failed.

[mav1234]

yeah you're right, it is rare for our team to get any points from special teams or defense.

wish it was that rare for every team...

[chef17]

A defender recovering an endzone fumble is credited with a DEFENSE touchdown. That is scoring DEFENSE, not offense.

The points get credited to our offense(because they were a part of our scoring offense), but since it was recovered in the end-zone no yards are credited to our offense, just the points so it HIGHLY increases their efficiency.

No it doesn't. It increases the team efficiency. It has nothing to do with the offense efficiency. The reason YPP can be related to wins is because it measures TEAM efficiency.

[teeray]

If this were true your formula from the earlier example would have had the correct YPP of 10.95 instead of 15.7

Also defensive TDs count for offensive scoring.

Also in terms of YPP if you throw an interception on the first play of a drive it doesn't even register at all in YPP. 0 Yards and 0 points.

[PantherProwler]

A defender recovering an endzone fumble is credited with a DEFENSE touchdown. That is scoring DEFENSE, not offense.

No it doesn't. It increases the team efficiency. It has nothing to do with the offense efficiency. The reason YPP can be related to wins is because it measures TEAM efficiency.

Dude it increases's the team's scoring offense efficiency. Points are added to our total but no yards. This makes our total team's offense more efficient. They do go on top of our other points don't they? And they are included in ypp. Those are exactly the type of things that improve your "total" offense's officiency.

I mean what are you telling me. You are right, and everyone else including even guys lie Sports Illustrated is wrong?

We track each NFL team in two key measures of efficiency. We call them Scoreability (offensive efficiency) and Bendability (defensive efficiency), which quantifies the bend-but-don't-break phenomenon. These are two of our Quality Stats, indicators that have a direct correlation to winning football games.

Each indicator takes into account a variety of factors that go into winning football, including proficiency of special teams, field position, red zone offense and defense, penalties, third-down offense and defense and turnover differential, and spits out those performances in an easy-to-understand number.

Essentially, we measure how each team performs in so-called "situational football." Put most simply, Scoreability and Bendability tell us which teams are smart and well-coached and which teams are not.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/kerry_byrne/10/26/49ers.coaching/index.html#ixzz1e1S8OEKV

Keep in mind that these measures are much more than just intellectual exercises by stat geeks far removed from the sidelines. Proficiency in these indicators is critical to team success: teams that win the Scoreability-Bendability battle of efficiency are 83-20 (.806) through Week 7, including an incredible 23-3 in the last two weeks (.885).

In other words, smart, efficient teams win football games. Dumb, inefficient teams lose football games. (We track the Correlation to Victory of these and many other stats at

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/kerry_byrne/10/26/49ers.coaching/index.html#ixzz1e1Rf5L3m

They call it just that scoring efficiency. Total offense scoring efficiency = ypp. This was written on Ocober 26th. I'm wrong. These guys are wrong. Every other article I've posted is wrong and you are right?

You guys are going to keep arguing forever man. It's not worth my time anymore honestly. Everybody else in the football world must be trolls like me.

[teeray]

you really just took one of the simplest calculations ever (net passing yards + rushing yards / total points scored by the team) and totally raped it. there's no point when you're just going to completely make poo up. "YPP is the square root of a team's punt returns minus the average field position of a visiting team playing at Lambaugh field in the summer of 1967 times the number of possessions resulting in a touchdown minus the deviation from the scoring deficiency of the defense." no. no it's not. YPP is the yards a team generates on offense divided by the total points the team scores. That's it. That's all. It's not a deviation from some average.

It is called "convoluting an issue to mask your own ineptitude".

[teeray]

Dude it increases's the team's scoring offense efficiency. Points are added to our total but no yards. This makes our total team's offense more efficient. They do go on top of our other points don't they? And they are included in ypp. Those are exactly the type of things that improve your "total" offense's efficiency.

I mean what are you telling me. You are right, and everyone else including even guys lie Sports Illustrated is wrong?

Exactly. That is why it isn't an offensive efficiency stat. Because defense and special teams can inflate it without your offense doing anything. That is exactly Chef's point.

When you are one of only 4 teams in the NFL that doesn't have 1 defensive or special teams TD it puts you in a serious disadvantage against the rest of the league in YPP.

[chef17]

Yes I am saying anyone who says a defensive TD increases an offense efficiency is wrong. Saying a play that has nothing to do with the offense somehow makes the offense more efficient is beyond retarded

[PantherProwler]

Screw it.