TSN blurb on what's next for Peppers

[crunkpanther]

Yes it was pure luck.

fug. Are you kidding me?

If you're just trying to get me wound up, rep for you, that's actually pretty funny.

If not, I have absolutely no idea of how to respond to that.

[Squirrel]

Who was our wide receivers? We ran the same passing plays and if the Giants or Bears had looked at all the film they would have known that. Seattle played us the right way and shut our passing game down.

[crunkpanther]

Who was our wide receivers? We ran the same passing plays and if the Giants or Bears had looked at all the film they would have known that. Seattle played us the right way and shut our passing game down.

So if Tom Coughlin and the other Giants coaches and players were so stupid that they couldn't figure out a passing attack that any moron could stop, how they win the Super Bowl two years later against a team many said was the best in NFL history?

[Urrymonster]

The Seahawks have had 5 playoff appearances compared to 3 on our part. So they've pretty much been one of the most consistent teams in the league. The Chargers also have had more playoff berths than we have, ...including 3 in a row the past 3 years.

Yeah and the Seahawks have also had a 4-12 season in that span as well. What have they also achieved? In those five playoff appearances two have been one and done and another two have been losses in the divisional playoffs. The Chargers had a 4-12 record mixed in with its four playoffs. The Titans have had 4-12 and 5-11 seasons, they also have not won a playoff game since 2003. I believe a lot of people were commenting on the double standard of achieving the playoffs and always contending for the playoffs. Our worst record since Fox took over is 7-9. Not many teams can boast that.

I personally never said anything about the Bucs wanting our record, so not sure why you went off on them. I do feel however that their superbowl was in 2002 and since then they have literally achieved nothing. Two one an dones and a couple of 4 & 5 win seasons.

What is more important? One extra playoff with a couple years of realising the season is already over by week 8? Or having something to fight and cheer for all the way through the regular season?

Opinions again, something that everyone will differ on. Only reason I am continuing to post is because you are on here all the time force feeding the same old story. Some people view things different get over it.

what everybody doesn't like to hear is we've got a lot of work to do, to get better. But people would rather distract themselves by looking down at the Lions and Raiders and some of the worst teams in the league and raise their arms in triumph that we're better than they are.

Seriously bud, everyone knows we are not perfect. Everyone knows that there are things to work on. News flash. EVERY TEAM HAS THINGS THAT NEED TO BE WORKED ON. I emplore you to find ANY team that has nothing to work on? No glaring hole. No lack of experience or depth in areas. It's impossible because the league is designed to keep teams so finely matched in talent and depth.

[frash.exe]

I'd rather have our results in the last seven years than the Chargers, Cowboys, Redskins (by the way - are you kidding me? The Redskins? Do you even follow how these teams actually do?), the Packers, the Broncos and the Ravens.

Do you know why?

Drum roll please:

THEY NEVER MADE THE SUPER BOWL.

Your first question was "who would be satisfied with our results?" Not "who's been more successful"...

I can't believe many fans would really switch with those teams.

That leaves six teams, and really, I could take or leave switching with the Seahawks and Bears, because they didn't win the Super Bowl.

So that leaves (and I'd add Tampa Bay, because they did win one) five teams I think have had a better last seven years.

That ain't many.

Okay you're really micro-analyzing the situation here. Whatever opinion you have of whose success you would trade in and who's you wouldn't, you seem to draw a defined line, which I don't, which is why, comparable to other teams' playoff berths the past 7 years, we're middle of the pack.

That ain't many.

You never really answered my previous question: What would be good enough for you?

I think I know why.

Asked and answered, maybe you can read a few pages back before you post. I find it funny you're holding me to this commitment to ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, i've been pretty busy the past couple days, I apologize if my commitments are getting in the way of answering YOUR question.

It's because if you get down to it, only about four or five teams would have the results you think are reasonable for EVERY fanbase to expect.

So you would have fired virtually every coach in pro football, including some who certainly would have gone on to win a Super Bowl with that team.

So maybe you realized that and didn't want to say your expectations were that high.

But the other hand, if you said they were a little less, it turns out the Panthers actually would meet your standard.

You know why? Because I think of it as counterproductive to constantly reflect on the past like so many of you people do on here. Our work is not finished, we haven't branded ourselves just yet and I'm not yet as quick to crown Fox's ass, so to speak, as many people here are.

I think you need to realize how succesful this team has been. Maybe if you weren't a fan during the early years or maybe if you've never been a fan of a team that struggled, you don't understand that this has been a pretty good run for the last several years.

Of course, we all WANT to win every year, and we all WANT to win a Super Bowl.

But so does every team. Wanting to do it and being able to do it aren't the same thing.

So I wasn't a fan during the early years. Does it really fuging matter? ...and you keep going back to claiming that I'm expecting superbowl berths every year, when all i've said this whole time is to be consistent and give yourselves MORE CHANCES to make deep playoff runs. LRN2RD.

And the best team doesn't always get to or win the Super Bowl. A few bad bounces, a few bad plays, and the better team can fall. The best you can do is do everything you can to get yourself in position to win.

For any team other than the Super Bowl winners over the last seven years, we had the best look at a championship. It didn't happen, but who, either in our fanbase or beyond, would be the least bit surprised if we won this year?

And as Fox says "a win is a win and a loss is a loss". Whether you lose by 3 points or 20, the loss still counts. You don't get a bigger consolation prize the closer you are to your opponent in scoring, and that is an opinion WIDELY expressed by all NFL players and coaches.

Also here's a newsflash, the rest of the league, a lot of other fans don't think a whole lot of us. It's widespread in the media, we are not a "top team" by any circumstance and I remember a few times people in the media saying the Cowboys and Eagles could beat us and yadda yadda yadda. So yeah, it would be a surprise to most of the league. Just like if another "under-the-radar" team such as say the Jaguars executed a playoff run and won the superbowl. IIRC the only times they did call us elite, we followed up with uninspiring performance to turn them off. *see 2006 season.

That's a good position to be in, and that's why I'm very satisfied with the job Fox and Hurney have done.

It's good that your satisfied. That way we can hear a whole seasonsworth of cop outs and excuses by you if we suck this year along with a constant seal of approval in "past" records and all the poo we did 4, 5, 6 years ago to justify the losses and whatnot.

[frash.exe]

Yeah and the Seahawks have also had a 4-12 season in that span as well. What have they also achieved? In those five playoff appearances two have been one and done and another two have been losses in the divisional playoffs. The Chargers had a 4-12 record mixed in with its four playoffs. The Titans have had 4-12 and 5-11 seasons, they also have not won a playoff game since 2003. I believe a lot of people were commenting on the double standard of achieving the playoffs and always contending for the playoffs. Our worst record since Fox took over is 7-9. Not many teams can boast that.

Ooohhhh, our 7-9 records are more prestigious than Seattle's 4-12s and Tennessee's 5-11s. Nice argument, hope that works out for you.

All i can remember about that is one thing in common we had with them was when we went 7-9 we were sitting on our asses watching the playoffs in January, and they did the same thing. The only difference it makes is how high your draft picks are and what rank you are in your 2 intraconference matchups.

Opinions again, something that everyone will differ on. Only reason I am continuing to post is because you are on here all the time force feeding the same old story. Some people view things different get over it.

I don't know where I could've gone wrong. This whole time I didn't realize it was Panther cardinal sin as a fan to preach discipline and undying determination and grit in the face of hardship, but the Panther way instead has been making excuses and writing off bad seasons to augment your head coach's caliber.

[mantal]

Fox is the one that gave us those high expectations. That should count for something. It does with Jerry, I can guarantee that...

[crunkpanther]

I don't know where I could've gone wrong. This whole time I didn't realize it was Panther cardinal sin as a fan to preach discipline and undying determination and grit in the face of hardship, but the Panther way instead has been making excuses and writing off bad seasons to augment your head coach's caliber.

See, this is where you get confused.

Pretty obviously no one is against determination and grit.

But some people are realistic enough to know that sometimes bad seasons happen when you have a boatload of players get injured.

Anyone who demands a winning season every year might think they're "preaching discipline and undying determination," but really, they're being an unrealistic whiny fan that praises players and coaches when things are going well and then throws them under the bus the first time anything goes wrong.

And I didn't know you weren't a fan during the early years, by the way. I just guessed it correctly based on how you act.

Just like I guessed that you've never pulled for any team that struggled for long periods. Maybe you've just been lucky.

[rayzor]

what would some of you say about a coach getting fired who had a 138-86 career record with your team, a 8-5 record in the playoffs, and 2 superbowl rings? he had a winning record in 9 of his 14 years.

would this be a good move or not and why?

what would make this a good move?

[Urrymonster]

Ooohhhh, our 7-9 records are more prestigious than Seattle's 4-12s and Tennessee's 5-11s. Nice argument, hope that works out for you.

All i can remember about that is one thing in common we had with them was when we went 7-9 we were sitting on our asses watching the playoffs in January, and they did the same thing. The only difference it makes is how high your draft picks are and what rank you are in your 2 intraconference matchups.

I do not understand your logic. Of course a 7-9 season is more prestigous. You have won more games?! Teams with an 8-8 record can get into the playoffs whereas 10-6 can miss out just because they have a harder schedule. Your record is the single most obvious sign on where your team stands. Again the reason I was pointing out those seasons with fluctuating records was because we were fighting for our playoffs right up to the last whistle. Of course that means something, it means we are a contender every year. I do not really see why having a decent season where you narrowly miss out on the playoffs is such a bad thing. You simply can't expect to be in the playoffs every single year for your entire existance of a franchise.

I don't know where I could've gone wrong. This whole time I didn't realize it was Panther cardinal sin as a fan to preach discipline and undying determination and grit in the face of hardship, but the Panther way instead has been making excuses and writing off bad seasons to augment your head coach's caliber.

Stop acting like a martyr. You seem to think everything is black and white?! Half the fans make excuses, half the fans are true fans. That appears to be the way you see it. I am not making excuses for our 7-9 seasons, much like I would not make excuses for all the other teams who have done much worse, but are considered superior.

This league is built to create parity. All teams have weaknesses. 99% of the board here know this. Not all of us like to fill our times criticising and complaining about an FO who is not going anywhere and has been successful here. Most of us prefer to look objectively, some like to be optimistic, some pessimistic.

The whole basis of this thread has been taken over by this non arguement - a trend that seems to follow you around a fair bit.

RB. No point in continuing this. I know how you feel, have read it pretty much on a weekly basis here for goodness knows how long. I just wish you wouldn't feel the need to try and argue how you feel in threads that have nothing to do with what you are saying. Why does it upset you so much that some people have different opinions and view our recent history more favorably than you. Don't answer. It's not actually a question.

[frash.exe]

what would some of you say about a coach getting fired who had a 138-86 career record with your team, a 8-5 record in the playoffs, and 2 superbowl rings? he had a winning record in 9 of his 14 years.

would this be a good move or not and why?

what would make this a good move?

who was that, Shanny?

I think considering the placement of their two superbowls and where most of their success was, his firing is justified.

[Fireball77]

I really think most of the problem with Shanny is that he had less than zero skill in picking out players on defense and picking out coaches. He's an offensive coordinator, really. Had Denver had a real GM when he was there, perhaps he would have been ok. Of course, perhaps that's why Bowlen had to get rid of him, he wouldn't agree to be there with a real GM. A big part of being a good HC is knowing player AND coaching talent. Anyone think TB would have had half their success with Gruden but WITHOUT Monte, who he inherited? Yeah, exactly.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the Steelers once Tomlin loses Arians and/or LeBeau (ESPECIALLY LEBEAU), both of whom he inherited. I think the Steelers and Tomlin will be tested big time.

[raleigh-panther]

Not to add to this, because, yes, the thread's gone a different way.

Let's forget about stats for awhile as those things can be twist. I don't think I'm that much different than any other fan.

I just want a team that is feared....a team that plays with passion and controlled agression.

A team that plays to win vs. plays not to lose (4th down attempts as an example) and does not embarass themselves on national TV consistently.

A team who does not consist of thugs.

That is all.

Maybe those things can't co-exist together in the NFL.

I believe this to be a defining year for Fox who is dealing with:

-- a shell-shocked QB, with a rebuilt elbow, who self-destructed at home in a playoff

game.

-- another disgruntled star lineman, this one, he drafted, unlike Jenkins who was drafted

by Seifert

-- yet another coordinator change , for whatever reason one can name.

-- what appears to be a very tough schedule against caliber opponents

-- a defense that is anything but fearsome

-- a run game that may struggle a bit this year with tougher competition

-- division rivals who are improving, and I honestly expect Atlanta to make a run this

year, moreso than the Saints...their coach is more defense minded.

Will we get the slim, trim, passionate john fox from the super bowl run of 2003 or will we get the 'just glad to be here' or 'we picked a bad game to have a bad game' John Fox of last year.

If past is prelude, he will go 7-9 against tougher competition as he has in the past.

I'm a fan through and through...I pull for this team /organization do good and represent themselves well. I just don't have a lot of faith with the on the field results of Fox teams anymore. Yes, we were 12-4 last year; but, that follows John's pattern. I continue to hope for the best

[rayzor]

who was that, Shanny?

I think considering the placement of their two superbowls and where most of their success was, his firing is justified.

yeah, and that is what i was getting at. remembering history and the good things is fine, but when you have reached a point where you can go no further, then it is time to do things differently.

denver will always remember the accomplishments of shanny but sticking with him for longer than they did would have been a mistake. truth is, he had stopped being effective as a coach. they had gone from being great to being mediocre. at least they had that greatness for a while. we haven't reached that. i want us to and i think we can.

this coming season, imo, is the last chance we have to see if fox can help make the panthers great. if he can't (and i think he has had plenty of time to take us there) then we need to find someone who can.

i don't think that denver made the right choice for a coach but finally deciding to make a move and start a new era was the right thing to do.

i can't speak for anyone else but my looking at 2009 as being the deciding factor for fox has to do with wanting the best for carolina. if he can't get us into the playoffs next year, i don't want to spend more time trying to find out. i want to move on and find someone who can. it isn't change for the sake of change i am after, it is change for the sake of improving and having a team that commands respect in a way that we really haven't.

for those who are opposed to letting go after next season, even if we don't make it to the playoffs or don't have a winning season, at what point do you decide it has been enough? at what point do you decide the potential that lies ahead for the panthers is more important than the past?