Who is Jim Harbaugh?

[fieryprophet]

What the players say mean Bunk. Now you're grasping for straws to continue or win an argument.

The San Diego players didn't want to see Norv Turner go for years either. That's a common cry by players, who some how feel responsible for a coaches departure, unless they just don't like them.

There have been numerous examples of this, concerning chronic under achieving coaches.

C'mon, you know this as well.

Prove it. You're telling me this is the case, prove it. I'm tired of doing all the work in these debates, it's about time someone proved their case to me. With actual facts, by the way, none of this "c'mon, you know it has to be true" pandering.

[CarolinaCoolin]

Jim harbaugh deserves the praise he gets from this board. If we actually landed him(not saying we were in the running or anything just speculating) we probably wouldn't even have cam. I bet if we got harbaugh here he would have convinced luck to come out and he'd be our qb. Our team would look very different then it is right now.

Coaching in the NFL isn't X's and O's anymore. It's like being a CEO. You put your players in the best position to win you games. That's by putting good coordinators together to help your players succeed that's by motivating your players to give them something to play for. That's by putting a winning culture together in the locker room. That's by makin hard decisions that will help the team in the long run. No one can argue that the 9ers wouldn't be in the Super Bowl if they stayed with Alex smith. Alex smith would not have come back from a 17-0 deficit to win the game at Atlanta. Kaep could and did with his explosiveness he brought to the team. Jim made the tough decision that could have split the locker room and it paid off and he's playing for a ring. To say he isn't a good coach and he'll get fired in two yeas is laughable at best. The 9ers are going to be a scary team for years to come.

[FootballMaestro]

Prove it. You're telling me this is the case, prove it. I'm tired of doing all the work in these debates, it's about time someone proved their case to me. With actual facts, by the way, none of this "c'mon, you know it has to be true" pandering.

So let me get this right?

You're asking me to prove, that many under achieving teams over the years, didn't express to want their coach back?

You can't be as big as a football fan as you purport to be, and actually even ask this question and/or challenge it's validity and historicity, if I'm understanding you correctly? That's not even debatable.

And I didn't forget the fact that you ignored many direct correlations I made between Harbaugh and Rivera. But that's all right. Cause I don't don't want to go on and on in circles, if you just changed the subject when given a direct comparison (and no don't ask me now, all you gotta do is go back to what we've already discussed).

I respect your opinion, viewpoint and passion. I really do. And you've made some good points and gave us some good information & insight. However, I feel you don't give Harbaugh enough credit; especially in comparison to Ron Rivera.

That's just down right unfair and a disservice to Harbaugh, to indicate that he may not even be a better coach than Ron Rivera has been during their same tenure (on either team). Harbaugh slid right into the role of CEO seamlessly, while Rivera's a District Manager trying to haplessly learn the expanded corporation/responsibilities, in comparison.

SMH

[FootballMaestro]

Jim harbaugh deserves the praise he gets from this board. If we actually landed him(not saying we were in the running or anything just speculating) we probably wouldn't even have cam. I bet if we got harbaugh here he would have convinced luck to come out and he'd be our qb. Our team would look very different then it is right now.

Coaching in the NFL isn't X's and O's anymore. It's like being a CEO. You put your players in the best position to win you games. That's by putting good coordinators together to help your players succeed that's by motivating your players to give them something to play for. That's by putting a winning culture together in the locker room. That's by makin hard decisions that will help the team in the long run. No one can argue that the 9ers wouldn't be in the Super Bowl if they stayed with Alex smith. Alex smith would not have come back from a 17-0 deficit to win the game at Atlanta. Kaep could and did with his explosiveness he brought to the team. Jim made the tough decision that could have split the locker room and it paid off and he's playing for a ring. To say he isn't a good coach and he'll get fired in two yeas is laughable at best. The 9ers are going to be a scary team for years to come.

This is part of what I was trying to explain to him.

He appears to want to pigeon hole Harbaugh into one, narrow silo (of his choice), oblivious to the multitude of various things Head coaches do and are responsible for today.

[rayzor]

anyone else think that on this topic FP = PFFL?

[fieryprophet]

So let me get this right?

You're asking me to prove, that many under achieving teams over the years, didn't express to want their coach back?

You can't be as big as a football fan as you purport to be, and actually even ask this question and/or challenge it's validity and historicity, if I'm understanding you correctly? That's not even debatable.

And I didn't forget the fact that you ignored many direct correlations I made between Harbaugh and Rivera. But that's all right. Cause I don't don't want to go on and on in circles, if you just changed the subject when given a direct comparison (and no don't ask me now, all you gotta do is go back to what we've already discussed).

I respect your opinion, viewpoint and passion. I really do. And you've made some good points and gave us some good information & insight. However, I feel you don't give Harbaugh enough credit; especially in comparison to Ron Rivera.

That's just down right unfair and a disservice to Harbaugh, to indicate that he may not even be a better coach than Ron Rivera has been during their same tenure (on either team). Harbaugh slid right into the role of CEO seamlessly, while Rivera's been a District Manager trying to haplessly learn the ropes, in comparison. SMH

You know exactly what I said, but you're inability to state your case makes you swing for snide remarks instead. Prove that Jim Harbaugh, through his motivational, organizational and CEO-esque responsibilities, as you allege them to be, have improved the 49ers drastically.

For one, the 49ers power structure was much different than the one Rivera stepped into, where Hurney had assembled himself a personal fiefdom by keeping the front office small and being directly involved in almost every aspect of the franchise; whereas Trent Baalke was an internal promotion and engages in more of a power-sharing arrangement with Harbaugh. Two, Harbaugh's immediate predecessor was one of the worst coaches in recent history, legitimately affecting the performance of his team and publicly humiliating them, which led to a talented team underperforming and made the next coach seem almost savant-like by the mere process of being competent. In contrast, Rivera came in for John Fox, who may have run his course here but is clearly a much superior coach to Singletary, so while the 2-14 season of 2010 was subpar it wasn't as if the team was drastically underperforming with Clausen at QB. Ironically, between the two coaches, Rivera is the only one to have improved his record from year to year :P

You're trying very hard to make an argument for Harbaugh, but doing a remarkably poor job of giving any concrete evidence.

[fieryprophet]

anyone else think that on this topic FP = PFFL?

For God's sake, give me any substantial shred of evidence in favor of Harbaugh being an elite coach. Just one! Tell me, rayzor, what schematic ingenuity has Harbaugh brought to the NFL?

[FootballMaestro]

You know exactly what I said, but you're inability to state your case makes you swing for snide remarks instead. Prove that Jim Harbaugh, through his motivational, organizational and CEO-esque responsibilities, as you allege them to be, have improved the 49ers drastically.

For one, the 49ers power structure was much different than the one Rivera stepped into, where Hurney had assembled himself a personal fiefdom by keeping the front office small and being directly involved in almost every aspect of the franchise; whereas Trent Baalke was an internal promotion and engages in more of a power-sharing arrangement with Harbaugh. Two, Harbaugh's immediate predecessor was one of the worst coaches in recent history, legitimately affecting the performance of his team and publicly humiliating them, which led to a talented team underperforming and made the next coach seem almost savant-like by the mere process of being competent. In contrast, Rivera came in for John Fox, who may have run his course here but is clearly a much superior coach to Singletary, so while the 2-14 season of 2010 was subpar it wasn't as if the team was drastically underperforming with Clausen at QB. Ironically, between the two coaches, Rivera is the only one to have improved his record from year to year :P

You're trying very hard to make an argument for Harbaugh, but doing a remarkably poor job of giving any concrete evidence.

Once again, you're being recalcitrant and trying to purport a false argument ("prove that Harbaugh is actually a good manager", despite the fact that we haven't heard any fall out on him making bad moves--like with Rivera, and have heard nothing but praise from fans, reporters and players, regarding the very same thing), suited to your own conclusions/speculations.

Go ask Colin Kaepernick or Alex Smith, about Harbaugh's management, talent evaluation, procurement, courage or decision making skills? One of them was a career bust, who was great last year. Now he's sitting on the bench, watching a raw, unproven QB take his job and win the same NFC Championship they lost last year with him at the helm.

And the last that I knew, Harbaugh's team is going to the super bowl, which is an improvement over what they did the previous year. I'm sure any coach, would take one less loss, or a lesser regular season record to make the Superbowl after losing during the Conference Finals the previous year. This fact truly shows how out of touch you're apparent blind, rabid infatuation of Harbaugh, has pushed you over the edge of clear thinking.

So if anyone is not making their argument here (and continually slipping into a slippery slope of confounding murkiness), it would be you. But that's okay. It was a good chat.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, and let it go. I'm glad you feel so strongly about your thoughts.

[SZ James (banned)]

I think the real issue for people like FP is that if the Panther's FO somehow landed Jim Harbaugh, he wouldn't be this adamant about how overrated he is. He would be saying the exact opposite actually. When you base your understanding purely on "Well the panthers did it this way, so it's right move and I'm gonna defend it no matter what", you're already hopeless.

Teeray and dozens of other posters fall into this trap every single day. Take the blind test. Ask yourself, if all you had to go by was "Coach A" and "Coach B" or "Team A" and "Team B", would your opinion change?

[rayzor]

For God's sake, give me any substantial shred of evidence in favor of Harbaugh being an elite coach. Just one! Tell me, rayzor, what schematic ingenuity has Harbaugh brought to the NFL?

lol you're looking at the wrong stuff, or at least different stuff.

first, he's as smart as any coach in the league. not smarter than all, but as smart as anyone.

what sets him apart is his management skills. he'd be incredibly successful leading any organization because of what he does.

he surrounds himself with a great staff.

he gets his players to buy into his vision of what he wants to do.

they know what's expected of them and puts them in situation to get better.

his players are better prepared than they ever were for game days before.

his confidence in himself and his team transfers over to the players around him. they firmly believe that nobody has it better than them. in fact that is essentially their war cry.

he's taken three programs now and turned them around completely. he made them respectable and essentially dominant in their setting. he did this buy pulling out of his players what they needed to win. he constantly put them in the right situations and didn't get in their way. he guided them to wins.

is harbaugh considered arrogant? yep. is it deserved? yep. the thing is that he transfers that onto his players. he's not liked by his peers, but neither is coughlin and belichick. neither is cam, for that matter. but that's not important. what is important is doing your job. win. get your players to win. and that's what he does and has done better than anyone in the NFC these last couple years and he did it with a mediocre team.

schematically....he makes the right calls at the right times. he's not perfect, but he knows the game and he knows how to manage it. he flat out knows how to run a team. he knows how to lead. he knows how to manage.

you don't have to be the smartest coach on the field to win. you don't have to have the best players on the field to win. you do have to make the right decisions with those players and put them in the right situations and you have to get them to play above the level they might otherwise play. you have to be able to get your players to do their job better than the other team. that's what he does.

[pstall]

yep. the double blind test reveals much.

sometimes isn't always a masterful adjustment that wins. sometimes its the OTHER teams lack of adjusting or staying the same.

the falcons had no answer for vernon davis, or at least didn't want to try to.

contrast that with the ravens. at the half bill cowher was adament about letting flacco open it up. he and everyone else saw it. that early drive in the 2nd half they threw from the shotgun like 9 times on one drive.

sometimes a good kick in the butt halftime speech can right the ship and you play your game a lil better and make stops.

im not saying Jim Harbaugh is elite, not yet. but fiery you are projecting that elite stuff on to many but doing the opposite in saying how overrated he is.

he is neither overrated nor elite.

[fieryprophet]

Once again, you're being recalcitrant and trying to purport a false argument ("prove that Harbaugh is actually a good manager", despite the fact that we haven't heard any fall out on him making bad moves--like with Rivera, and have heard nothing but praise from fans, reporters and players, regarding the very same thing).

Go ask Colin Kaepernick or Alex Smith, about his management, talent evaluation, procurement, decision making skills? One of them was a career bust, who was great last year. Now he's sitting on the bench, watching a raw, unproven QB take his job and win the NFC Championship, they lost last year.

And the last that I knew, Harbaugh's team is going to the super bowl, which is an improvement over what they did the previous year. I'm sure any coach, would take one less loss, or a lesser regular season record, to make the Superbowl, after losing during the Conference Finals the previous year.

This truly shows how out of touch you're apparent blind, rabid infatuation of Harbaugh, has pushed you over the edge clear thinking.

So if anyone is not making their argument here (and continually slipping into a slippery slope of confounding murkiness), it would be you.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, and let it go. I'm glad you feel so strongly about your thoughts.

Again, a non-answer. And I assure you, Harbaugh does not get universally glowing reviews from everywhere. His own media generally considers him an arrogant jerk who glories in the accomplishments of his team and refuses to accept blame. I find it fascinating that my generally lucid and forthright comments on Harbaugh are written off as rapid homerism when anyone who's read through my comments generally find I make logical and defensible arguments on why I feel the way i do. You don't have to agree with me either, but to slight me by accusing me of fanaticism or homerism just shows the futility of your own arguments.

[fieryprophet]

lol you're looking at the wrong stuff, or at least different stuff.

first, he's as smart as any coach in the league. not smarter than all, but as smart as anyone.

what sets him apart is his management skills. he'd be incredibly successful leading any organization because of what he does.

he surrounds himself with a great staff.

he gets his players to buy into his vision of what he wants to do.

they know what's expected of them and puts them in situation to get better.

his players are better prepared than they ever were for game days before.

his confidence in himself and his team transfers over to the players around him. they firmly believe that nobody has it better than them. in fact that is essentially their war cry.

he's taken three programs now and turned them around completely. he made them respectable and essentially dominant in their setting. he did this buy pulling out of his players what they needed to win. he constantly put them in the right situations and didn't get in their way. he guided them to wins.

is harbaugh considered arrogant? yep. is it deserved? yep. the thing is that he transfers that onto his players. he's not liked by his peers, but neither is coughlin and belichick. neither is cam, for that matter. but that's not important. what is important is doing your job. win. get your players to win. and that's what he does and has done better than anyone in the NFC these last couple years and he did it with a mediocre team.

schematically....he makes the right calls at the right times. he's not perfect, but he knows the game and he knows how to manage it. he flat out knows how to run a team. he knows how to lead. he knows how to manage.

you don't have to be the smartest coach on the field to win. you don't have to have the best players on the field to win. you do have to make the right decisions with those players and put them in the right situations and you have to get them to play above the level they might otherwise play. you have to be able to get your players to do their job better than the other team. that's what he does.

All of that sounds great, but I've seen this EXACT scenario before: Mike Ditka. Mike Ditka was a great, Super Bowl winning coach and worthy of praise despite his arrogance and smaryminess right until. . .his true skills showed, and he traded away an entire draft for Ricky frickin' Williams. Again, my argument has been that Harbaugh is not an elite coach, not that he isn't a good coach. He's obviously a good coach, but he's shown me NOTHING that makes me think he has the capacity to be better than that, and I'll be very curious to see how he performs when the talent level around him diminishes.

[SZ James (banned)]

Again with the backpedaling from your earlier statements. The whole thing about good vs. elite thing is something you made up just recently to save face. Good coaches don't get fired a few years after they make it to the super bowl.

No one is saying the elite thing but you homie.