SCO96

I actually made this point months ago in a post. Every year we see players at other positions get drafted late and blossom when given the opportunity. Some players excel even if they are undrafted. Teams are willing to let a late rounders/UDFA's compete for a starting job at every position but QB. Too much capital is tied up in a first round pick to have him sit. If you have 1st and 3rd-4th round QB's on the same team you're automatically going to give #1 every chance to win the job. If flames out you're likely going to be picking in the top of the draft again. The new guy taken in the first round will once again be given the chance to start. Low round guys have low cap hits and are easy to replace. I bet there are a quite a few of guys who have fallen thru the cracks down thru they years that could have been competent, if not great, QB's in the NFL because of lack of opportunity.

I agree. But, each of those guys were lucky to be chosen by the teams that picked them. Hear me out. Mahomes: He had the luxury of sitting a year behind a competent, but not great QB, in Alex Smith. The Chiefs were a playoff team before he got there. Jackson: The Ravens were a 9-7 team the year before Lamar got there. They would have made the playoffs if they had not lost the last game of the season. The Raven have been one of the more stable franchises in the 21st century. And Lamar, like Mahomes, did not have to start immediately. He took over by the end of his rookie year, but he had an opportunity to watch at first. Allen: People forget that the Bills made the playoffs the year before he got there. Tyrod Taylor took them to the Wild Card round. Allen was drafted by a playoff team. Watson: Houston traded up to get him at 12. Like Allen, his team was in the playoffs the year before he go there. The made it to the Divisional Playoff with "Tom Savage" and "Brock Osweiller" splitting QB duties. The pieces were in place for all 4 to have succeed fairly quickly. The franchises could afford to make deals to move up because they had no gaping holes on their teams. A-Rod and Big Ben also joined stable franchises and blossomed in a hurry. Mayfield, Darnold, David Carr, etc went to poor teams and it affected their play. I'm not saying they'd be all time great if they'd been drafted by different teams, but I do think they would each have had an easier transition into the league. If you draft a stud in the top 5 but he's on a bad teams, then you need to get that time competitive by year 3 or he could end up shell shocked and permanently damaged.

You know if Stafford stayed in Detroit he would not have a SB ring . He went to a team that has arguably the best young offensive mind in the game at HC, a Hall of Fame DT, an All-pro CB, a solid cast around him that got better when they signed OBJ. The Rams were in the SB just 3 seasons prior to 2021. I like Stafford, but he was held back for years by his Detroit. The Rams made s wise move to get him. I You need to look at the post that preceded mine. The post I originally responded to made reference to the LAST 20 SB winning QB's. I didn't cherry pick anything. 2021-20=2001. I just rounded down one year so I could use the 21st Century as a starting point and include in Trent Dilfer, who was a QB drafted high in the first round one. Elway was a great QB. He deserved to be a #1 overall pick. JaMarcus Russel was also a #1 overall pick. He sucked. As great as Elway was he was 0-3 in SB's. Each loss was worse than they one that preceded it because his team wasn't as good. He won 2 titles on the backend, but he was past his prime by that time. His teams were stacked and he had Terrell Davis to help him carry that load in addition to Shannon Sharpe, Rod Smith, Ed MaCaffrey, etc You're taking the Brad Johnson thing too personal. I remember him coming out in the 9th round. We only have 7 rounds now so I was thinking he'd likely be a UDFA now. I didn't realize you had him on your original post. My bad. The "tank crowd" is misunderstanding our position. If a guy is worthy of a top selection go get him. If not don't' reach. No problem taking a Cam Newton, Troy Aikman, John Elway, Andrew Luck, Trevor Lawrence in the first round. We'd all trade up for them if we had to . We wouldn't do it for David Carr, Baker Mayfield, or Jamarcus Russell. Some guys are saying that we should tank for CJ Stroud even though Ohio State hasn't produced a QB that has made 1 Pro Bowl appearance in 65 years. What has Justin Fields shown so far to suggest that we should have taken him in the first round last year? You and I clearly disagree on some things. But I don't think its' a stretch to say that if you were a GM, you probably would have tried to move up to get Herbert (I would have too) and would not have made any of the bad moves Rhule made at QB. Still, as bad as our offense is, I don't think any of our QB's the past 3 years can be fairly judged from their time under Rhule.

No it's not dumb to go with SB winners. Many on this board think we have to draft inside the top 5 to get a QB capable of winning a SB. You wouldn't draft them that high or give up a slew of draft picks for any other reasons. The historical data shows that you do not. There were people who were upset that we didn't intentionally tank in 2020 to get Trevor Lawrence in the 2021 draft. Trevor is looking better now a better coach and better surrounding cast, but his 2021 season was not that impressive because his team and coach sucked. We didn't make mistake drafting Cam. He lived up to his position. He won a MVP award, took us to the playoffs 4 times, and 1 SB. But, he didn't win a SB. In fact we only had 3 winning seasons with Cam. Your 2nd paragraph doesn't hold at all. You totally misunderstood what I was trying to say in the post. Some years the guys available at those draft slots really aren't good enough to merit a selection in the top 10. If a guy is good take him. If not, don't reach. Carson Wentz looks terrible now. Some think he may be on his last starting job in the NFL. He was great in 2017, but hasn't been the same since. Nick Foles played well in the playoffs and SB because he had a good team around him...and good coaching! The next season Foles took the Eagles to the playoffs again when Wentz go hurt. Wentz is a #1 pick he was let go from Indy after 1 season, and Ron Rivera pretty much threw him under the bus this week. Although he does have a point about poor QB play in Washington this year. Jalen Hurts, Cooper Rush, and Daniel Jones were all drafted lower than Wentz in the draft, but he's quarterbacking the team in last place in the NFC East while the other 3 all have winning records

. I went back to 2000 just so we could use the 21st century as a our benchmark 2021 Matt Stafford (#1 pick first round)---not his original team. Never won a playoff game with Detroit 2020 Tom Brady (#6) 2019 Pat Mahomes (#10) 2018 Tom Brady (6th round) 2017 Nick Foles (3rd round) 2016 Tom Brady (6th round) 2015 Peyton Manning (1st pick, 1st round) 2014 Tom Brady (6th round) 2013 Russel Wilson (3rd round) 2012 Joe Flacco (1st round, pick 18) 2011 Eli Manning (#1 pick, 1st round) 2010 Aaron Rodgers (#1 , pick 24) 2009 Drew Brees (pick 32, 2nd rounder in 2001)---not with the team that drafted him. 2008 Ben Rothlisberger (pick 11, 1st round) 2007 Eli Manning (pick 1, 1st round) 2006 Peyton Manning (pick 1, 1st round) 2005 Ben Rothlisberger (pick 11, 1st round) 2004 Tom Brady (6th round) 2003 Tom Brady (6th round) 2002 Brad Johnson (9th round 1992, would have been undrafted today) 2001 Tom Brady (6th round) 2000 Trent Dilfer (1st round, pick #6) --- That stat about #1 QB's having 3x more SB wins is somewhat misleading. Eli is the only # 1 in to win 2 SB's with the team that drafted him since 2000. Peyton got 1 title with Indy (2006). Peyton's 2nd SB (2015) was due to the effort of his defense that year. I don't think he threw for 150 yards our SB loss and had a INT. He was benched part of that season because an injury affected his ability to throw. The Denver team carried him, not the other way around. Stafford never won a playoff game in Detroit. He went to a stacked Rams team that had been to the SB 3 years earlier and lost because of an over drafted 1st round QB (Jared Goff) couldn't muster more than 3 points against the weakest Patriot team to ever win a Super Bowl. The next highest drafted QB to win a SB was Trent Dilfer #6). He never won in Tampa and was shipped out to Baltimore. He won a SB with one of the all time great defenses in NFL history the 2000 Ravens. Once again, like Peyton Manning, a great defense carried him to a SB win. The Ravens thought so little of him that they replaced him as starter the year after he won a SB. As you pointed out in your post, no only one other top 10 QB has won a SB (Mahomes) Big Ben is the only 1st rounder QB besides Eli to win 2 SB's with the team that drafted him and he was drafted outside of the top 10 (#11). No one has a problems taking a QB in the first round if he falls to you in the draft, or if you can make a fair trade to move up to get him w/out mortgaging the team's future. My problem is with the people who feel that we must "tank" to get a 1st or 2nd draft spot to ensure a QB selection, even if the quality of QB's available isn't particularly good. No QB since 2000 drafted at #2, #3, #4, #5, #7, #8, or #9 has won a Super Bowl. Tom Brady's dominance has certainly skewed things. But, he is living proof that a QB doesn't have to be a first rounder to have success in the league. Great teams when SB's when they have good/great QB play. A top 5 pick on a bad team won't win, just look at Lawrence in 2021.

This is what people need to remember. The big time schools get a lot of 4-5 star talent and are usually just better at the skill positions and trenches than their opponents. These QB's get to the pros and quickly realize every player in the NFL is better than what they faced in college. Then, the high draft choices go to bad teams (which is why they were drafted high in the first place) which results in them looking mediocre. Lamar Jackson, Aaron Rodgers, Josh Allen, Pat Mahomes , Dan Marino all went to teams that made the playoffs or at least had a winning record the season before they took over as starter. A solid roster was there to help them and they all blossomed in a hurry. The guys who go to bad teams struggle, especially in their first few season. Some never can recover. Teams and fans put too much pressure and high expectations for 22-24 year old kids entering the league. Stroud could be good as you pointed out, but he ain't worth "tanking for". No one in this draft is.

Unless a drastic improvement in his play occurs, it appears we'll be adding 2021 draft pick Justin Fields to this mediocre list of quarterbacks.

Ohio State QBs.jfif

It matters b/c Ohio State QB;s never pan out in the NFL. I'm 51 years old and can clearly remember EVERY NFL SEASON since 1979. That's over 40 years worth of games. I've seen a lot of players come and go. In that time span OHIO STATE has never produced a successful NFL QB. If Stroud fell to us in the draft and a great OC or HC was leading the offense I "might" could support taking him. No way would I lose games intentionally to draft him. It seems like whenever a team needs a QB, everyone feels they need to grab a QB in the top 10 if they have the pick. Unfortunately, the colleges simply don't put out "franshise" QB's every year. Take look at the link below to see just how many 1st rounder have flamed out in the pro after they were taken in the 1st round. http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/positions/qb Don't read the entire chart (unless you have a bunch of time). Just start at 2010. Most of the first rounders don't pan out. If a QB is good we should take them, but we can't afford to reach at that position. PS: That chart goes back to 1937. I bet you won't find one Ohio State player who excelled in the NFL as a quarterback.

There are people on this very board saying we need to tank for the #1 pick this year, or at worst a top 3. That’s crazy. The NFL draft doesn’t produce franchise QBs every year. We have the top two QBs from the 2018 draft on our current roster (selections 1 & 3). You can make an argument that neither should have been a 1st round selection, let alone a top 5. I don’t see a QB in this draft who screams “Franchise”. I wouldn’t tank for anyone in this draft, especially not for an OHIO STATE QB

I can't see any team giving up a #1 for CMAC before the trading deadline. If he has a productive year and proves he can play in a majority of the games I could see a contending team possibly parting with a round one choice if they're drafting at the end of the first round (picks 26-32). Those choices are usually for playoff teams and a player like Christian could be the missing piece to put someone over the top. The choice available to a team in that area of the draft is likely to be less productive than CMAC. The only big issue is the cap hit. Can they absorb the big salary w/out going over the cap? Then, we need to ask ourselves will the player will get lessen the impact of the loss of CMAC. In most cases I'd venture to say no.

It really concerns me that people are thinking CJ Stroud and Bryce Young are such guaranteed prospects that we should tank for them. Ohio State QB's NEVER pan out in the NFL. I don't think Alabama has produced a Pro Bowl QB since Ken Stabler in the 1970's. BAMA and Ohio State are always in the top 5-10 in terms of recruiting. When those teams play on Saturdays, they are usually the most talented team at almost every position on the field. Of course their QB's look dominant. Then they get to pros. The high draft slots put them on crappy teams that are talent deficient and they began to look mortal. I'd rather take may chance on a QB who puts up numbers in a solid conference where he is going up against more talented teams week in and week out.

@AdamSchefter Former Panthers’ HC Matt Rhule now leaves the Panthers being owed north of $40 million. ---- It's crazy that a guy could come to Charlotte and do that poor of a job winning games and still walk away knowing that he's got $40 million coming to him. I don't know what Tepper was thinking when he gave Rhule in a 7 year contract.. I could see a 3 or 4 year deal...BUT SEVEN!!

One of Bum Phillips’ most famous quotes was in 1978. He was asked about coaching against Shula, and Phillips said, “He can take his’n and beat your’n and take your’n and beat his’n.” In other words, Shula was such a great coach he could beat you with his players, and he could beat you with your players. —— After seeing how hard the defense has played to keep us in this game; and how hard Christian and the crew has played on offense, I have no doubt that there are coaches in the NFL who could win right now with this current roster. We aren’t a championship team as currently constructed, but the Panthers are not a team opponents just roll over even with Rhule at the helm. San Francisco is clearly better than us, but at no point in this game have I felt we were just overmatched. Let this sink in. If not for the missed field and missed 2 pt conversion attempt, we’d be down by one score to a team that manhandled the world champion LA Rams (who could protect Stafford or even score a touchdown) less than a week ago. If we had the right coach/coaches this team could be a problem for NFC in the immediate future.

Wouldn't you say a serviceable running back is a good running back? Before the season was extended from 16 to 17 games, a running back only had to average 62.5 yards per game to crack 1,000 yards. Now he only has to average 58.8 yards per game. A back (or set of backs) who can carry to ball 18-20 times per game and average over 4.0 yards per carry are more than serviceable.

I agree that you have to have a QB. Those last four winning QB's are Stafford (good to very good), Brady (most accomplished QB in history), Mahomes (possibly his heir apparent) and Nick Foles (not an all time great...but played out of his mind during that Eagle playoff run) The running backs I listed Gale Sayers, Barry Sanders, OJ Simpson, Adrian Peterson, Eric Dickerson really didn't play with great QB's in their career and therefore they couldn't get to a SB. AP had Favre for one good season but lost the NFC title game to New Orleans. Your point is well taken. Great RB's cannot carry teams to a SB on their own. But, you pair a great QB and good/great RB together, you can accomplish and awful lot.

Oops. I was thinking we didn't have a 4th. Thanks for the correction. Then, we need to really nail those first two draft choices in 2023. As bad as we are, we should have picks in inside the top 40. What I don't want us to do is trade back with the 2nd pick to get more choices. I bet everyone on this board could find two starters for the team next year if we had top 5 choices at the top of each round.

1. I think the answer depends on what's available in the offseason. I'll admit that I'd be gun shy getting another low 2nd-3rd tier retread (Bridgewater, Darnold, Mayfield). But if a top 12 guy was available in he'd be a significant upgrade for us. I don't know a whole lot about the rookies. Several guys are saying we should tank to get a top 1-3 choice so I'm guessing their better than last year's class. 3. Nope! But, I'd like to think even Carolina would have a hard time blowing a top 5 selection in the first round. We could probably nab a solid center, LB, d-lineman, or Safety in the 2nd/3rd and come away with possibly 3 starters in a best case scenario.

I didn't say we were an elite team. I said we could be a playoff team, especially if certain things fell into place. Remember, we once won a division title with a 7-8-1 record. Hear me out. I'm looking ahead to 2023. Brady will in all likelihood be gone from Tampa at the end of the season. Tampa's Super Bowl aspirations will be going away with him. Atlanta and New Orleans are not exactly world beaters. Carolina isn't playing in a stacked division like the AFC West. 1) Imagine if we had a legit QB who could gets us 25 or more TDs and keep his TD/INT ratio at 2:1. n 2) Pair him with a good OC. 3) We have our 1st 3 picks in the 2023 draft class. We should be able to get some good choices b/c we know we'll be picking at the top of each round. You guys don't think the above scenario could win us 9-10 games and take a weakened NFC South? I didn't say we were an elite team or good enough to have a deep playoff run. I just think we can take our weak division once Brady leaves.

That's not his fault. As you stated QB's are the most important players on the field. We've had some of the worst QB play in the league since our last playoff season in 2017. Take a look at some of the following RB's, all time greats, who never won (or even played in ) a SB because of lackluster QB play. Gale Sayers, Barry Sanders, OJ Simpson, Adrian Peterson, Eric Dickerson. Even guys like Walter Payton and Jerome Bettis who did win rings at the end of the careers were only able to do so because they were on teams that had good defenses and competent QB play to lighten their load Getting rid of Christian for more picks doesn't automatically put us in a better position to win based on our current roster and front office. As I said in another post you can have a boat load of picks and still screw up. Take a look at our last two drafts. Or better yet, look back on the Ricky Williams deal. Saints coach Mike Ditka gave the Redskins all of his draft choices to move up in pick Ricky in the first round. This is from Wikepedia: "The Saints traded their first round, third round, fourth round, fifth round, sixth round, and seventh round picks in the 1999 NFL Draft,[7][8] and their first-round and third-round picks from the 2000 NFL Draft to the Washington Redskins for the fifth overall pick of the 1999 NFL Draft." That was really dumb. But, people tend to overlook the fact that the Redskins accomplished absolutely nothing with all the draft capital they got from the deal. They made the playoffs in 1999, and then missed the postseason the next five seasons until they made it back in 2005. Extra draft choices mean nothing if you pick the wrong dudes.

If RB's don't matter, why do you (and everyone who wants to trade Christian) think anyone in the NFL is going to give us a #1 draft choice for any injury prone running back? We're probably going to get a two at best, but more likely a 3rd round choice. Then everyone is making the assumption that once we get those choices, we're guaranteed to pick the right players and begin a quick rebuild. I've seen nothing in the history of the Panthers to suggest we'd properly use those choices. If anything we're going to draft the wrong player, or "trade down for value" and wind up with more selections, but more JAGS who would also "fail to move the needle" If I were the owner and Christian demanded a trade this season or held out heading into next season I'd consider accommodating him. If he wants to stay I'd keep him for the rest of the year. Once I knew for certain who the coach and GM would be prior to the 2023 draft I'd consider a trade/move only if a well laid out strategy was presented for the next year that would facilitate a quick rebuild. Personally, I'd be more inclined to replace a couple of our other high dollar players and use FA and the draft to fill some holes and finally get a QB. We really are just a QB and talented OC away from being a playoff team.

I would never consider signing Baker to a long term deal, but hear me out. What you pointed out in your post about the throwing mechanics is fixable. Footwork issues are fixable. Calling better plays and developing better schemes is fixable. A good coaching staff could win games with Baker. He won 7 games for a team that won non the year before he got there. And, he won a playoff game after almost throwing 30 TD's one year, without the help of an injured Odell Beckham. Teddy B went 5-0 as a Saint starter with Sean Peyton coaching him. Last year in Denver he went 7-7 with 18 TD's and 7 INT's. Sam Darnold went 7-6 with 19 TD's and 13 INT's in 2019. Had he done that last year we would have been an 8 or 9 win team in 2021. Yet, each guy seems to play worse football in Carolina. Such a decline in performance has to be in large part due to coaching. The current staff is unable to get the most out of the players and put them in position to succeed on the gridiron.