Whip em out, boys. Fluff piece on the Panthers from MMQB

[Woodie]

9 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

I get all that, but keep in mind we're not just talking about Shula. More than one person has stated the belief that Dorsey was much more buddy than coach.

Shula? Yeah, Rivera may not have known, but we do know he was told. Voth confirmed there was pressure to fire him but Rivera refused. That's a little tougher to defend.

As to Newton in general, Igo was actually of the opinion that the staff from Rivera on down has basically been afraid to say a negative word to him. You definitely can't coach effectively like that.

I'm sure Voth was given an indication of what went down, but chances are his source wasn't someone in the room when these discussions took place (that would have been a very small group, none of whom are likely to blab something so potentially explosive to the media...even if they are in-house).  It was most likely 2nd or 3rd hand accounts, which are notoriously unreliable and are fraught with slight, but important differences from the original story.  So, I wouldn't exactly take what he said as gospel.  Not to mention I've heard contradictory things from people who also have sources.  Either way, I don't believe it was that black and white, these things rarely are.  

I can definitely see everyone handling Cam with kid gloves.  Not only is he the heart of the team and a strong personality, but more importantly, he was also JR's guy.  So, I'm sure they navigated him very carefully.  Nobody wanted to stir up a hornets nest...especially one in which they didn't know how it would play out.  

[The Pieyed Piper]

10 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

I get all that, but keep in mind we're not just talking about Shula. More than one person has stated the belief that Dorsey was much more buddy than coach.

touching, are we talking about touching?

[The Pieyed Piper]

 

[panthers55]

19 hours ago, Woodie said:

I think, reading between the lines (not just this article, but everything I have read since they were hired), that the Turner's don't think Cam was coached very well at all.  And it's becoming more clear just how right they are.  Nothing they are doing or planning is revolutionary, but for whatever reason, didn't happen with Shula and Dorsey overseeing Cam's development. 

I get the sense that Cam just didn't have the respect for Shula and Dorsey that he does for Norv.  I believe he liked them, but it's almost like parents that are too buddy, buddy with their children and the kids don't take them seriously when the parents try to teach or discipline them.  But Norv has the success and achievements that make him a person worth listening to, and he's a strong enough leader to demand Cam's respect and attention...which I honestly believe is exactly what Cam needs to help him take the next step as a QB.      

I hope that Cam will make the changes he needs to make. Things he has been taught, coached and watched on film every week. It is easy to blame Shula and Dorsey for everything and tout Norv as the savior who will come in and set everything right  But these are not new issues and I really doubt they weren't discussed or worked with in the past. Hopefully Cam has the pieces in place around him so he doesn't feel he has to do it all because he has so.little talent around him. Hopefully he also has the discipline to stop freelancing and doing what the offense needs him to do instead of trying to be the hero and take it all on himself.  Norv won't have to try and scheme around all our deficiencies and hopefully won't have to rely on Cam to carry things on his back. I am very optimistic about this year.

[panthers55]

25 minutes ago, stbugs said:

I think he will but I also think trying to not blame the coaches is an issue. They relied on Cam winging it too much. I don’t think Norv is a savior but everything he and his son have been saying seems to strike a chord with us fans who feel like we’ve seen the same thing. It’s water under the bridge but there’s likely some truth to it when it’s being discussed openly as things they are working on with Cam. I don’t think we ever heard this before so I’m leaning more towards the fact that the past coaches weren’t doing this. Whether it was due to Cam ignoring them or just not being great coaches, we may not know unless Cam says that Norv is doing stuff he’s never done. That said, we’re both optimistic. 

Obviously it wasn't working and Cam wasn't improving so there is likely blame to go around on all sides. To me it isn't so much about who was at fault as it is moving on in a more successful fashion. The past won't change the future but it can inform the present to change the future. One of the biggest positives is that Hurney finally gave Cam the pieces he needs not to feel he has to carry everything on his back.  Add that Norv is very knowledgeable and respected and it could be the perfect set up for success. Cam now just has to have success in this system so he buys into what Norv is doing and it could set things in a very positive fashion.

One question. Are you suggesting that having Cam get the ball out faster and doing more checkdowns instead of holding the ball is new and not discussed before? I can tell you I have harped on this for years so I can't imagine how it wasn't obvious to anyone including the coaches and Cam.

[panthers55]

I also hope Norv is working with Cam to be less predictable. Like always rolling away from pressure blitzes versus throwing into the blitz to the wide open man who the blitzer left uncovered. Turning your back to the defense when you scramble and throwing to a man and not a spot. Some of these have been there since his rookie year and for whatever reason don't change.

[run-run-pass-punt]

23 hours ago, Dunn said:

“With him, on every play, we want to make sure he has a plan and he’s following that plan,” said Scott Turner. “And to know checking down is OK. A lot of Cam’s issues have come because he’s so talented that he thinks he can make every play work. And sometimes, it’s just not there, so you check down and go to the next play. By holding the ball, sometimes he takes hits or falls into negative plays.

 

Yes...please yes.  Check down to CMC/Samuel/CJ and let them get the yards for you, save your body from abuse.  

And the beauty of this is that, if he does this effectively, all those big splash plays will still be there, ready and waiting for the appropriate moments.

I do think that sometimes Cam's strength is also his weakness. Having that arm cannon gives perhaps too much confidence, obscuring the value of the "easy" plays.

[Mr. Scot]

7 hours ago, Woodie said:

I'm sure Voth was given an indication of what went down, but chances are his source wasn't someone in the room when these discussions took place (that would have been a very small group, none of whom are likely to blab something so potentially explosive to the media...even if they are in-house).  It was most likely 2nd or 3rd hand accounts, which are notoriously unreliable and are fraught with slight, but important differences from the original story.  So, I wouldn't exactly take what he said as gospel.  Not to mention I've heard contradictory things from people who also have sources.  Either way, I don't believe it was that black and white, these things rarely are.  

I can definitely see everyone handling Cam with kid gloves.  Not only is he the heart of the team and a strong personality, but more importantly, he was also JR's guy.  So, I'm sure they navigated him very carefully.  Nobody wanted to stir up a hornets nest...especially one in which they didn't know how it would play out.  

Voth isn't the only person to confirm that story. Pretty sure they even acknowledged it on the team site when Turner was hired.

And yeah, considering that Richardson once told his offensive coordinator that he wasn't even allowed to talk to Steve Smith, I'd say there was probably a sense that some guys were untouchable.

Don't believe we'll see that with Tepper.

[Woodie]

2 hours ago, panthers55 said:

I hope that Cam will make the changes he needs to make. Things he has been taught, coached and watched on film every week. It is easy to blame Shula and Dorsey for everything and tout Norv as the savior who will come in and set everything right  But these are not new issues and I really doubt they weren't discussed or worked with in the past. Hopefully Cam has the pieces in place around him so he doesn't feel he has to do it all because he has so.little talent around him. Hopefully he also has the discipline to stop freelancing and doing what the offense needs him to do instead of trying to be the hero and take it all on himself.  Norv won't have to try and scheme around all our deficiencies and hopefully won't have to rely on Cam to carry things on his back. I am very optimistic about this year.

There's no question that Norv has a big advantage in that he doesn't have to scheme around our deficiencies the way Shula did.  No matter what people think of Shula, they have to admit he was dealt a bad hand for the bulk of his time as OC...which is why I think Rivera gave him more time than many fans felt he deserved.

With that said, I don't think Shula and Dorsey were a good fit for Cam.  Cam has never been the most disciplined QB, mainly because of his immense athletic ability.  But he's also a strong personality that tends to be a bit stubborn.  So, he needed a strong coach that can keep him reigned in, not a buddy like Dorsey seemed to be or a more laid back guy like Shula.  So, while they may have tried to work on these issues, they simply weren't capable of getting through to Cam (and I don't think it was because Cam was unwilling, he just needed a firmer hand).

It's why I think Norv is a perfect fit for him.  He has enough success that he will have Cam's respect from the start, but he's also very firm and focused on the details.  I'm sure Cam will still freelance some, after all, it's one of the unique aspects of his game that sets him apart.  However, I think Norv will design the offense to make it more of a controlled freelance.  

[Mr. Scot]

8 minutes ago, Woodie said:

It's why I think Norv is a perfect fit for him.  He has enough success that he will have Cam's respect from the start, but he's also very firm and focused on the details.  I'm sure Cam will still freelance some, after all, it's one of the unique aspects of his game that sets him apart.  However, I think Norv will design the offense to make it more of a controlled freelance.  

Not to be that guy, but I think you know that's a style / personality mix that could also go horribly wrong.

I don't believe it will, but I have to acknowledge the possibility.

[panthers55]

5 minutes ago, Woodie said:

There's no question that Norv has a big advantage in that he doesn't have to scheme around our deficiencies the way Shula did.  No matter what people think of Shula, they have to admit he was dealt a bad hand for the bulk of his time as OC...which is why I think Rivera gave him more time than many fans felt he deserved.

With that said, I don't think Shula and Dorsey were a good fit for Cam.  Cam has never been the most disciplined QB, mainly because of his immense athletic ability.  But he's also a strong personality that tends to be a bit stubborn.  So, he needed a strong coach that can keep him reigned in, not a buddy like Dorsey seemed to be or a more laid back guy like Shula.  So, while they may have tried to work on these issues, they simply weren't capable of getting through to Cam (and I don't think it was because Cam was unwilling, he just needed a firmer hand).

It's why I think Norv is a perfect fit for him.  He has enough success that he will have Cam's respect from the start, but he's also very firm and focused on the details.  I'm sure Cam will still freelance some, after all, it's one of the unique aspects of his game that sets him apart.  However, I think Norv will design the offense to make it more of a controlled freelance.  

It will be interesting to see how Cam manages having a tougher taskmaster as OC. Hopefully he buys in and the offense flourishes rather than Cam digging in his heels and becoming passive aggressive. On the other hand Norv isn't known for his flexibility and compromise. When he and Zimmerman couldn't agree on the offense Turner bailed because he and Zimmerman are both strong personalities who didn't or wouldn't change.

[panthers55]

19 minutes ago, stbugs said:

I think your last paragraph is the problem. It has been discussed in here, but I don’t recall Shula ever coming out with statements like we’ve already heard from the Turners. Unfortunately, we can’t assume they were discussing it before we drafted CMC. Look at our RB receptions before 2017 and after Chud. They were dismal and so bad that they couldn’t have been part of the offense. That’s not the case with Norv, we’ve seen the opposite. Based on historical evidence I’d say that it wasn’t obvious to the coaches and it took several years and Cam playing lights out in 2015 to mask the issue. I’m hopeful that Norv will do for Cam what he did for Rivers and Aikman.

So.let me get this straight. It was discussed on message boards among casual fans but because Shula didn't call him out in public it wasn't a point of emphasis and wasn't addressed.   You really think that?

The reason the Turner's even mentioned it is because they were specifically asked about changing Cam and they just pointed out the obvious thing everyone knows. Norv doesn't need to do what he did for Aikman in the 80s and Rivers 10 years ago. He needs to integrate what Cam does well into an offense that is more diverse than any Norv has coached before. A much bigger task IMO.

[Woodie]

2 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Voth isn't the only person to confirm that story. Pretty sure they even acknowledged it on the team site when Turner was hired.

And yeah, considering that Richardson once told his offensive coordinator that he wasn't even allowed to talk to Steve Smith, I'd say there was probably a sense that some guys were untouchable.

Don't believe we'll see that with Tepper.

Other than people quoting Voth, I haven't seen or heard anyone confirm this story.  But I have had someone tell me it wasn't exactly like it sounded.  Don't really know anything myself, though, so who knows.

 

[Mr. Scot]

3 minutes ago, Woodie said:

Other than people quoting Voth, I haven't seen or heard anyone confirm this story.  But I have had someone tell me it wasn't exactly like it sounded.  Don't really know anything myself, though, so who knows.

Joe Person also mentioned it, for one.