Its time to fire Rivera

[Mother Grabber]

for those comparing us to the rest of the division, we are slightly above average in scoring offense and defense, being 12th and 13th respectively.

The rest of our division is offensive machines, Taints - 3rd, Dirty Birds - 6th, and Sinking Pirates - 9th, but the absolute bottom of the league in defense, 30, 31, and 32.

Our main hole in defense, as you may have guessed, is in passing, which is hopefully being addressed with improved safety play.  If we can squeak those two up around 10th each, we will very much be legit contenders.

[Definitely Not Trolling]

17 minutes ago, OneBadCat said:

Rivera has been a pretty good coach overrall. Hard to say if his faults are more to do with in house issues or personnel problems we don't know about. He could certainly manage timeouts better. But I like him so much better than Fox. Rivera does actually go against the grain and try new things. If Fox ever had an ounce of Riverboat in him we would have made several playoff runs. 

 run run run punt

[Mr. Scot]

2 hours ago, JARROD said:

The Bucs fired Gruden in 2009 at 9-7 thinking he was too mediocre or whatever and where has that gotten them since? 

They bring in coach after coach, have gone through 2 first round quarterbacks and a ginger giraffe,.. that’s what they called him in Florida ha.

Philadelphia got rid of Reid and it took a couple of coaches and of course Nick Foles playing the games of his life but they did get a Super Bowl,..

the point is,.. what or who is the alternative?

how many coaches has Kansas City, the Rams since Mike Martz, and a host of other teams to get to be even relevant?

we could fire Rivera and get the next young offensive hotshot,...

chud? He was an dud,.

how many other “geniuses” were duds? Many.

so,.. the immortal words are,..

be careful what you wish for,..

Bucs aren't a great example given that they won a Super Bowl right after firing Tony Dungy.

As to Gruden, he wasn't fired for performance, though he easily could have been given that the Bucs never got back to that Super Bowl level. Gruden was fired because his players hated him.  Several of them went to management and said they wouldn't play for him.

Bottom Line: To continue supporting Rivera, you have to believe he's capable of winning a Super Bowl, not just having good seasons. Doesn't really matter if he wins 9-12 games a year if we're not playing for championships.

I don't know whether he's capable of it or not, but I do know there's sufficient evidence to call it into question.

[Mr. Scot]

22 minutes ago, Mother Grabber said:

for those comparing us to the rest of the division, we are slightly above average in scoring offense and defense, being 12th and 13th respectively.

The rest of our division is offensive machines, Taints - 3rd, Dirty Birds - 6th, and Sinking Pirates - 9th, but the absolute bottom of the league in defense, 30, 31, and 32.

Our main hole in defense, as you may have guessed, is in passing, which is hopefully being addressed with improved safety play.  If we can squeak those two up around 10th each, we will very much be legit contenders.

The added problem there though is that our rivals seem to have pretty well figured out how to beat our defense.

And while our offense is definitely in better hands, I'm not sure how comfortable I feel with the notion that we've got to win a bunch of shootouts.

[Definitely Not Trolling]

There's alot to coaching other then installing an O and D. Which in my opinion is better then avg then the league has to offer. 

Drafting, leadership, player motivation, dedication, teaching football to name a few, which he is amazing at. His intangibles to run a team is great, hence why he stays and GM's and owners get fired but Ron doesnt.

[Mother Grabber]

3 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

The added problem there though is that our rivals seem to have pretty well figured out how to beat our defense.

And while our offense is definitely in better hands, I'm not sure how comfortable I feel with the notion that we've got to win a bunch of shootouts.

I'd much rather have a team that is balanced, and in the top half of the league in both offense and defense, than one that is so one-sided, like the rest of our division.  You just can't win championships that way.  Even a 28-3 lead in the 4th quarter isn't safe, if you can only play on one side of the ball.  The Rivera led Panthers staff have always done a very good job of being balanced, and generally in the top half of both offense and defense.

I agree, though, that it seems we need to have a more malleable defense that can make games more of a challenge for the opposition, especially when you get to the championship game after 2 weeks to prepare.  That is one point where all the wins in the world won't help, if you can't up your game for the finals, or after a break.

[Gladniator1]

I think a lot of the people defending Rivera aren't looking at it correctly, on multiple issues at that.  The relevant question is:

Are the Carolina Panthers better or worse with Rivera as head coach?

Personally, I feel they are worse.  Other coaches could do much better with the fundamental aspects of a head coaches responsibility on game day such as clock management, player selection (D.J. Moore should be out there most every play) and motivation (he lets the players do that).

Where the defenders get it wrong is with the 2 arguments regarding our record and about players messing up.

True, our record is 3-1.  Barely.  We have Cam Newton and Luke Kuechly on each side of the ball along with a great supporting cast (with Gano giving us a win as well).  The players got us to 3-1.  Rivera sure as heck didn't pull out any great "coach moves" that left everyone going Wow!  Mostly, his calls left us scratching our heads and going Wtf?  It's entirely possible (if not plausible) that we are 3-1 DESPITE Rivera, not because of him.  So the record does not magically mean the coach is great.  He's not on the field, the players are.

Also, the defense that it's the players fault when they drop a pass or miss a block not being on Rivera is not legit.  True, a single instance of a mistake on the field should not be on Rivera.  But *consistent* mistakes are completely on him.  Absolutely.  For instance, this multi-year issue we have with getting to the line of scrimmage.  This has gone on for YEARS.  And it's STILL NOT FIXED.  That's all on Rivera.  100%.  We consistently give up time outs that are needed at the end of halves for that crap.  Rivera defenders will (incorrectly) state that Cam is taking too long, but this is exactly what I'm talking about.  If Cam did it once it would be on Cam.  Him doing it frequently over multiple years is ALL ON RIVERA.  A head coach's job is to fix that.  He hasn't.  So when we consistently make mistakes over and over it's not the players fault anymore, it's the coaches.  If Torry Smith drops one pass it's on Torry.  When he drops lots of passes and still gets a lot of play time...it's on Rivera.  

What Rivera has brought to the Panthers (bad game-clock management, bad play-clock management, bad player selection and bad motivation) could be done by any number of high school coaches.  Hence, it is my belief that we are worse with Rivera as head coach.  I know many others will disagree.  I just wanted to point out the inconsistencies of some of his defenders arguments.

[Millioso7]

Ok do it then ya big dummy.. then hire who?.. seriously dide name some prestigest quality coaches on Ron’s tier.. take everything into account like ability to lead men.. ron gets respect from all the other top coaches. For example pats who take a lot of our strategic moves all the time.. coincidentally ron has a good record versus them

[Millioso7]

8 minutes ago, Gladniator1 said:

I think a lot of the people defending Rivera aren't looking at it correctly, on multiple issues at that.  The relevant question is:

Are the Carolina Panthers better or worse with Rivera as head coach?

Personally, I feel they are worse.  Other coaches could do much better with the fundamental aspects of a head coaches responsibility on game day such as clock management, player selection (D.J. Moore should be out there most every play) and motivation (he lets the players do that).

Where the defenders get it wrong is with the 2 arguments regarding our record and about players messing up.

True, our record is 3-1.  Barely.  We have Cam Newton and Luke Kuechly on each side of the ball along with a great supporting cast (with Gano giving us a win as well).  The players got us to 3-1.  Rivera sure as heck didn't pull out any great "coach moves" that left everyone going Wow!  Mostly, his calls left us scratching our heads and going Wtf?  It's entirely possible (if not plausible) that we are 3-1 DESPITE Rivera, not because of him.  So the record does not magically mean the coach is great.  He's not on the field, the players are.

Also, the defense that it's the players fault when they drop a pass or miss a block not being on Rivera is not legit.  True, a single instance of a mistake on the field should not be on Rivera.  But *consistent* mistakes are completely on him.  Absolutely.  For instance, this multi-year issue we have with getting to the line of scrimmage.  This has gone on for YEARS.  And it's STILL NOT FIXED.  That's all on Rivera.  100%.  We consistently give up time outs that are needed at the end of halves for that crap.  Rivera defenders will (incorrectly) state that Cam is taking too long, but this is exactly what I'm talking about.  If Cam did it once it would be on Cam.  Him doing it frequently over multiple years is ALL ON RIVERA.  A head coach's job is to fix that.  He hasn't.  So when we consistently make mistakes over and over it's not the players fault anymore, it's the coaches.  If Torry Smith drops one pass it's on Torry.  When he drops lots of passes and still gets a lot of play time...it's on Rivera.  

What Rivera has brought to the Panthers (bad game-clock management, bad play-clock management, bad player selection and bad motivation) could be done by any number of high school coaches.  Hence, it is my belief that we are worse with Rivera as head coach.  I know many others will disagree.  I just wanted to point out the inconsistencies of some of his defenders arguments.

How do you barely have a 3-1 record? Shut up there’s no in between.. replace him with who? Sound stupid boy ron is a true alpha.. it’s not easy to lead men and maintain there respect

[Gladniator1]

1 minute ago, Millioso7 said:

How do you barely have a 3-1 record?

You put your team in position of needing a 63 yard field goal to win.  That's how.

[Gladniator1]

5 minutes ago, Millioso7 said:

Ok do it then ya big dummy

Insults will get you everywhere.  Oh wait...

[TheCasillas]

Just now, Gladniator1 said:

You put your team in position of needing a 63 yard field goal to win.  That's how.

This comment can be perceived as both good and negative. Just not sure which way you are presenting it.

"You put your team in a position to win a game with a walk off field goal"

or

"It took a last second field goal to win the game"

Ironically they both end in wins.......

[Gladniator1]

We were up 17-3 and Rivera started playing SCAREDY-BALL.  We should have been punching them in the nose, yet we let them back in to take the lead and needed a franchise record-breaking field goal to come from behind.  That's not a testament to good coaching.  It's the opposite actually.  I see how others will disagree on Rivera.  My points still stand and I happen to think he is holding the team back from greatness.

[Chardee MacDennis]

Here's my take:

I like Rivera for his confidence. His demeanor. His family oriented approach. His players seem to like him a lot and enjoy playing for him. He seems to let Cam be Cam and doesn't get in players faces when they make mistakes. I honestly think he is a good, strong leader. 

But not a good head coach at the NFL level. Maybe he should be the defensive coordinator? 

He just doesn't have the management skills in game, nor does he appear to ever have the team "ready" to play. 

Scheming is poor, adjustments are poor, playing vets when clearly the younger guys are better and should be out there is not only foolish but also costing the young guys chances to learn and improve even more.

To me it's not about the wasted time outs, or hiring Norv, or promoting from within, or his stoic look on the sidelines.

It's about coming out for each and every game prepared and focused and ready to dominate the opponent, run the score up, and never let off the gas. Win every game by 40. Have plan A, B, C and D ready to be rolled out in game and changed if necessary.

And that simply isn't his mentality and it should be the mentality of your head coach. 

His supreme confidence that the team can pull out all stops and make a play to win at the end every time, will be his downfall. 

I don't think firing him mid season is a good idea. They need to play out this year and hope Cam can take them deep into a playoff run. 

And maybe Cam will forever be attached to Ron, and Ron will be here for Cam's entire career because they were just good enough but never champions.

But, Cam and Luke only have maybe 5 years left of being able to carry this team. There are some solid weapons and role players around right now.

One more strong off-season, and Rivera realizing the young talent needs to be on the field, should lead to a few highly competitive years.

Then when it's time for a new QB, it'll be a new Regime in my opinion.