DJ Moore graded out as the 24th best WR according to PFF

[top dawg]

Just now, GoobyPls said:

Show me for that game then since DJ only ended with 18 yards I want to see if he ended the same if he would have got that 70 yard TD

Teddy didn't do Robbie any favors either, but you don't see anyone else focused on one receiver on one play. 

Bottom line is that PFF, Football Outsiders and NGS rated Adams as either tops or near-tops in the league. Come on, man! They don't base it on just pure yardage either. D.J. will have to step his game up to be on Adams' level. I can't believe you're even arguing the point. 

[GoobyPls]

2 minutes ago, top dawg said:

You already know that CMC is valued for his rushing, but even more so for his yards from scrimmage. Three-down backs that are prolific runners and receivers are all the rage. 

Neither Shula or Turner did CMC any favors. Some do believe that you can use a back too much, and thereby cause diminishing returns.

Your using that word valued to loosely, considering the fact we have a horrific record when Mccaffrey gets a ton of receptions. So how valuable are those receiving yards?

And yes Turner did Mccaffrey favors by force feeding him, it made his stats look better than what they really are. 
 

oh and Cook can also catch considering he’s had a higher yard per receptions than CMC on numerous seasons.

[top dawg]

Just now, GoobyPls said:

Your using that word valued to loosely, considering the fact we have a horrific record when Mccaffrey gets a ton of receptions. So how valuable are those receiving yards?

And yes Turner did Mccaffrey favors by force feeding him, it made his stats look better than what they really are. 
 

oh and Cook can also catch considering he’s had a higher yard per receptions than CMC on numerous seasons.

And I'm telling you that CMC was run into the ground by bad play calling that actually caused his efficiency to suffer. How many times did you see him run into a pile? That's not a favor! Give me a break!

[GoobyPls]

7 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

PFF has that grade, they grade every play, you should take time to understand how they work, whether or not they give out that information that is a different question.

I never said Adams was better, all I'm saying is he graded higher than Moore did on all of his plays last year based on the PFF grading system which does the best job of anything we have for grading all of the players in the league.  I haven't took the time to watch each play of both and neither have you.

I also understand how their system works and because of that I do realize that QB play will have some bearing on the grade and I can factor that in when looking at the list, but their system does try to account for QB play better than any other grading system we have.  So yes, Moore could have actually received a higher grade for that catch of his opposed to the one Adams has.  So in reality they are actually trying to accomplish the one thing you keep harping on with their grading system.  

Here again it would benefit you greatly to take time to understand how they work.

 

 

 

I understand how it works and it makes no sense. For one they are bias (The article on Allen), and most likely not watching the film more than once. Like in that specific play since Samuel made a circus catch they probably didn’t even credit Moore for what would been a TD.

 

Since you are agreeing the system is flawed, how about we go play by play. You show me evidence of Adams great receiving expertise not aided by Rodgers perfect passes and I’ll do the same for Moore.

It can’t get anymore fair than that right? 

[GoobyPls]

5 minutes ago, top dawg said:

And I'm telling you that CMC was run into the ground by bad play calling that actually caused his efficiency to suffer. How many times did you see him run into a pile? That's not a favor! Give me a break!

If Norv is good at one thing is drawing up a good run game and force feeding his RB just ask LT. How much times in 2019 were we getting blown out by double digits and Norv or his son kept handing or throwing the ball to CMC against prevent D playing off coverage. Bonafon was averaging over 6 ypc and Norv still wouldn’t use him

[GoobyPls]

13 minutes ago, top dawg said:

Teddy didn't do Robbie any favors either, but you don't see anyone else focused on one receiver on one play. 

Bottom line is that PFF, Football Outsiders and NGS rated Adams as either tops or near-tops in the league. Come on, man! They don't base it on just pure yardage either. D.J. will have to step his game up to be on Adams' level. I can't believe you're even arguing the point. 

Cause anyone with football knowledge knows Robby isn’t on DJ level, so theirs no point in arguing.

[AU-panther]

8 minutes ago, GoobyPls said:

Show me for that game then since DJ only ended with 18 yards I want to see if he ended the same if he would have got that 70 yard TD

game grade still probably wouldn't give you the full answer, that is only one snap out of how many?

each play is graded -2 to +2 in .5 increments.  Here again you should take the time to learn this.

Their player grade are nothing but a combination of positive grades vs negative grades, doesn't mean one player can do more than the others.  Its very possible that Adams had more highly graded plays than Moore this year, that doesn't necessarily mean he is better, a lot of times it does, but as you said WRs are somewhat dependent on usage.

In reference to the two plays you showed, I'm sure both were positive scores.  Adams might not had had a lot of separation but he did have some, the defender was in a trail position, and he did make the catch, so maybe that is a +1, purely a guess on my part.  To me Moore's catch was more difficult, maybe a +1.5.  Maybe a 2 would have been landing and breaking some tackles and scoring a td.  They actually have a rubric for what each grade should represent on each play for each position and they try their best to apply that uniformly among all players regardless of what you think.  Also I'm pretty confident in saying that Rodgers probably received a higher grade for his throw than Teddy did for his, which in itself makes PFF better than any other stat based scoring system we have.

 

 

[top dawg]

18 minutes ago, GoobyPls said:

Cause anyone with football knowledge knows Robby isn’t on DJ level, so theirs no point in arguing.

Well, that just means that you don't know what you're talking about. They're different receivers with different strengths. Anyone that can't understand that is not interested in analysis, just pure favoritsm. So, yeah, there is no point in arguing.

Edited January 15, 2021 by top dawg

[GoobyPls]

6 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

game grade still probably wouldn't give you the full answer, that is only one snap out of how many?

each play is graded -2 to +2 in .5 increments.  Here again you should take the time to learn this.

Their player grade are nothing but a combination of positive grades vs negative grades, doesn't mean one player can do more than the others.  Its very possible that Adams had more highly graded plays than Moore this year, that doesn't necessarily mean he is better, a lot of times it does, but as you said WRs are somewhat dependent on usage.

In reference to the two plays you showed, I'm sure both were positive scores.  Adams might not had had a lot of separation but he did have some, the defender was in a trail position, and he did make the catch, so maybe that is a +1, purely a guess on my part.  To me Moore's catch was more difficult, maybe a +1.5.  Maybe a 2 would have been landing and breaking some tackles and scoring a td.  They actually have a rubric for what each grade should represent on each play for each position and they try their best to apply that uniformly among all players regardless of what you think.  Also I'm pretty confident in saying that Rodgers probably received a higher grade for his throw than Teddy did for his, which in itself makes PFF better than any other stat based scoring system we have.

 

 

That’s the point of my thread, the grades that pff give out don’t mean much if they have Moore ranked 24th when in reality his just as good as Adams.

 

Chris Simms who does rankings also brought this up last season. Last year Micheal Thomas who is a possession receiver was their number 1 graded WR, yet opposing defenses never double Thomas, matter of fact a lot of times he’s getting covered by safeties, backers and nickels, so how come pff doesn’t take that into account? 
 

Over the last couple of seasons why is it that Belichick has only doubled 3 WR that I can think of (AB, Julio and Tyreek) According to pff grades Belichick should be doubling guys like Adams and Thomas but all the times he faced those guys he never did. Ever give that much thought? That smartest coach ever is willing to double a guy like Tyreek over the pff number one rated WR

These are highlights of Adams of every major catch in 2020,  I counted 3 maybe 4 difficult catches and 2 great YAC plays, outside of that its a clinic by Rodgers of throwing dimes. It also shows Rodgers extending plays allowing Adams to get open, which I have no clue what so ever how pff accounts for that.

 

 

 

[AU-panther]

1 minute ago, GoobyPls said:

That’s the point of my thread, the grades that pff give out don’t mean much if they have Moore ranked 24th when in reality his just as good as Adams.

 

Chris Simms who does rankings also brought this up last season. Last year Micheal Thomas who is a possession receiver was their number 1 graded WR, yet opposing defenses never double Thomas, matter of fact a lot of times he’s getting covered by safeties, backers and nickels, so how come pff doesn’t take that into account? 
 

Over the last couple of seasons why is it that Belichick has only doubled 3 WR that I can think of (AB, Julio and Tyreek) According to pff grades Belichick should be doubling guys like Adams and Thomas but all the times he faced those guys he never did. Ever give that much thought? That smartest coach ever is willing to double a guy like Tyreek over the pff number one rated WR

These are highlights of Adams of every major catch in 2020,  I counted 3 maybe 4 difficult catches and 2 great YAC plays, outside of that its a clinic by Rodgers of throwing dimes. It also shows Rodgers extending plays allowing Adams to get open, which I have no clue what so ever how pff accounts for that.

 

 

 

Their grades mean plenty, you just have to be smart enough to understand how they come up with them and then apply them properly.  PFF isn't' saying Adams is more dangerous than hill.  All they are saying is Adams has had more positively graded plays (which is entirely possible) and therefore a higher grade.   You are continuing to argue about something you clearly don't understand.

They also have an analytical side that tracks numerous metrics, those might paint a different picture.  Maybe Moore is 4th in the league in yards per route, or most broke tackles or yards of separation.

As I said earlier, a WR might be the most dependent position on the filed, can they totally remove that dependency, of course not, but they can do a better job than just looking at straight stats such as total yards.  Back to the plays in questions there is a very good chance that PFF actually did grade Moore higher, which is exactly what you are hoping for.  

A DE is probably easier to isolate.  On most plays they are going up again one player with no help.  Their PFF grades might be a better indicator how how good they compared to other DEs than maybe WRs are.

The problem isn't with PFFs system, its the best we have for comparing all of the players, its with people who are too stupid to understand it.

 

 

 

 

[GoobyPls]

2 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

Their grades mean plenty, you just have to be smart enough to understand how they come up with them and then apply them properly.  PFF isn't' saying Adams is more dangerous than hill.  All they are saying is Adams has had more positively graded plays (which is entirely possible) and therefore a higher grade.   You are continuing to argue about something you clearly don't understand.

They also have an analytical side that tracks numerous metrics, those might paint a different picture.  Maybe Moore is 4th in the league in yards per route, or most broke tackles or yards of separation.

As I said earlier, a WR might be the most dependent position on the filed, can they totally remove that dependency, of course not, but they can do a better job than just looking at straight stats such as total yards.  Back to the plays in questions there is a very good chance that PFF actually did grade Moore higher, which is exactly what you are hoping for.  

A DE is probably easier to isolate.  On most plays they are going up again one player with no help.  Their PFF grades might be a better indicator how how good they compared to other DEs than maybe WRs are.

The problem isn't with PFFs system, its the best we have for comparing all of the players, its with people who are too stupid to understand it.

 

 

 

 

That’s the whole point of my thread, they can come up with what ever quacky equation they want, that spouts out the grades but at the end of the day there’s a ton of film evidence and coaching decisions that say other wise.

The pff grades might say Micheal Thomas was the best WR last year but the opposing defensive strategy says otherwise. They might say Adams was the number 1 graded WR on there site but the film shows Moore having done more with less.

You can go with the pff grades I go with the tape and coaching decisions.
 

When Bill Belichick is willing to leave the so called number 1 graded WR on a island one on one, while doubling the 18th graded WR one 80% of the plays, don’t you think it’s time to reevaluate how they are grading these players. It seems pff likes to emphasize other non important aspects of the receiving position while completely avoiding more valuable aspects. I can tell you right now Tyreek Hill does more for the chiefs offense than Adams does for the packers and pff doesn’t seem to care for that.

[AU-panther]

4 minutes ago, GoobyPls said:

That’s the whole point of my thread, they can come up with what ever quacky equation they want, that spouts out the grades but at the end of the day there’s a ton of film evidence and coaching decisions that say other wise.

The pff grades might say Micheal Thomas was the best WR last year but the opposing defensive strategy says otherwise. They might say Adams was the number 1 graded WR on there site but the film shows Moore having done more with less.

You can go with the pff grades I go with the tape and coaching decisions.
 

When Bill Belichick is willing to leave the so called number 1 graded WR on a island one on one, while doubling the 18th graded WR one 80% of the plays, don’t you think it’s time to reevaluate how they are grading these players. It seems pff likes to emphasize other non important aspects of the receiving position while completely avoiding more valuable aspects. I can tell you right now Tyreek Hill does more for the chiefs offense than Adams does for the packers and pff doesn’t seem to care for that.

but your tape is limited, you aren't watching all the snaps

emphasize?  what exactly do you think they they are emphasizing

All they can do is grade a player based on what he does on a snap, you can't grade a player based on what he could do with someone else.  Do you really think anyone at PFF is going to say Beasly is better than Hill, or would prefer Beasly?

If you are expecting their grading system to tell you something different that is on you and the fact you don't understand what they are doing.

Who are your top-15 receivers, chances are its pretty similar.

 

 

[GoobyPls]

3 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

but your tape is limited, you aren't watching all the snaps

emphasize?  what exactly do you think they they are emphasizing

All they can do is grade a player based on what he does on a snap, you can't grade a player based on what he could do with someone else.  Do you really think anyone at PFF is going to say Beasly is better than Hill, or would prefer Beasly?

If you are expecting their grading system to tell you something different that is on you and the fact you don't understand what they are doing.

Who are your top-15 receivers, chances are its pretty similar.

 

 

The highlights I posted show every major target Adams had, and you got nothing to show for it.

 

it’s pretty obvious they emphasize possession WR over big play guys who garner more attention by opposing D.

By pointing out Beasley over Hill your pretty much agreeing with me in that the grading system is extremely flawed, you just don’t want to come out and say it.

It seems defensive coaches put as much stock into the grades as I do. They probably see them as a cute internet click bait article.

 

My top in no order are Hill, Moore, Digg, Mclauren and AB. All guys that can beat you in anyway you want.

[AU-panther]

14 minutes ago, GoobyPls said:

The highlights I posted show every major target Adams had, and you got nothing to show for it.

 

it’s pretty obvious they emphasize possession WR over big play guys who garner more attention by opposing D.

By pointing out Beasley over Hill your pretty much agreeing with me in that the grading system is extremely flawed, you just don’t want to come out and say it.

It seems defensive coaches put as much stock into the grades as I do. They probably see them as a cute internet click bait article.

 

My top in no order are Hill, Moore, Digg, Mclauren and AB. All guys that can beat you in anyway you want.

Their system isn't flawed, I just understand it so I can put context to it.

Its only flawed to those who don't understand it or are expecting it to be something they don't even claim for it to be.

If you asked them to rank the best all around receives their list would probably look somewhat different.  

You are faulting them for being something they aren't claiming to be.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2021 by AU-panther