why all the flip flopping on john fox?

[carolinanimal]

Simple. Moore saved his job and showed that this is a good team with a good coach. If he would just stop being so stubborn and admit that the Jake deal and sticking with him for so long was a mistake. Change is hard for some people. I was talked off the ledge about Fox a few seasons ago, and until he proves to me, (like I matter) he can't coach or had lost the team, I really believe he should get a new contract after next season...only if he wins the Superbowl. Not just get there, but win it. If he cant do that with this team and Matt Moore, and an easier schedule (if there is such a thing) then he needs to go after the 2010 season.

i hope so jangler. i have said this before i think john fox is the perfect coach.......for a struggling team! his philosophy, game plan and loyalty to vets can help with a franchise in flux. i just dont know if he has what it takes right now to take us over the top. each year we go to the playoffs we keep doing worse , superbowl. nfc championship, divisional round, next we will get knocked out in the first round.

[AceMan]

Imagine if Delhomme never got hurt lol Everyone would want Fox(and Delhomme) gone.

Fans are fickle. They let John Fox pull one over them again.

[panthers55]

for some reason you always come of as a jerk when you respond to people. like you are the ultimate source of knowledge on all things football. if doing that on a message board makes you feel better then more power to ya!

So deion sanders is an idiot when it comes to football? what was idiotic about his statement? it is a valid question. how does a team that was 12-4 a year ago go 8-8 with almost the same staff? is that a better question for you?

why are you still responding to this thread? obviously you have nothing to input, so you must be here just to argue.

my thread wasnt about why john fox should be fired, or even if he should. all i asked (and where you went of on a tangent) is why have people changed their minds on firing him. was it the last 4 games? if so why? what did he show in those last 4 games that was different from the first 12? are thier other reasons? do they think it will carry on into next year?

i thought this was a message board.

I am only a jerk to folks who make idiotic posts. Congratulations!!

First it isn't your thread, you were just the one to post in it first. Secondly, I answered your question but you didn't like it. And any idiot knows that winning changes everything. Why do you persist in asking the same stupid questions??

[carolinanimal]

I've noticed a change in attitude among several Panthers fans I know too, not just on this board.

Moore comes in and gives us more than respectable QB play, puts us in a position to not just win, but convincingly win, against playoff contenders and all the sudden there is a shift towards giving Fox the benefit of the doubt.

All the while, this attitude casually ignores the fact that it was Fox who said on Oct 28, 2009 "I believe (Jake Delhomme) gives us the best chance to win". Well, this is obviously not true, as we went on to lose the next three of five games that Delhomme started in, and put us out of reach for even a wildcard spot.

In those five games Jake threw 4 TDs and FIVE interceptions. In the losses, it was 1TD 5 INT. Fox's formula for winning is primarily a running game, with consistent QB play. Jake's performance is NOT giving us a good chance to win in that system.

Now... look at Matt Moore for the next five games... 8 TDs - 1INT, and that one INT was his debut as the starter, arguably shaking off rust. THAT'S a good chance to win.

If Moore, who is a backup, can come out and play lights out like that, what could this team do with a Drew Brees, or a Tom Brady, or hell even Carson Palmer? Domination...

I defended Jake Delhomme for years. He did some good things for the Panthers. But there comes a time to move on. I can see it. Everyone I know that has some sense can see it. If Fox can't see it, then HE needs to go.

Thats why i started this thread! i am wondering what really changed those peoples mind. how did 4 games influence them over 12 games they saw for the regular season?

[Wither]

Why does everyone act like they know about Fox? "He's stubborn, he's this, he's that" like they have played for him and know him personally?

[carolinanimal]

I am only a jerk to folks who make idiotic posts. Congratulations!!

First it isn't your thread, you were just the one to post in it first. Secondly, I answered your question but you didn't like it. And any idiot knows that winning changes everything. Why do you persist in asking the same stupid questions??

thats your opinion of my posts. no one else has said i am a idiot for making this, only you. so by your definition they must be idiots too.

i didnt start this thread?! who is carolinanimal then? i am so confused!!!:confused:

i know winning changes things. but after only 4 games of winning, after several losses have people changed so drastically. i asked the questions to get an answer. if you dont like them dont respond. there are plenty of other threads where your vast knowledge can be used. :smilielol5:

[carolinanimal]

Why does everyone act like they know about Fox? "He's stubborn, he's this, he's that" like they have played for him and know him personally?

Do you think that john fox is not stubborn or over loyal to players? players that have played for him have said he is extremely loyal to players. you can always ask dan morgan if you want.

[beastson]

i could have swore just about 4-5 weeks ago most of the board was in unison about firing john fox. Now he wins a couple of games and he is vince lombardi!

is our fan base that scared of change? i mean eventually john fox is going to leave the panthers. will we collapse like a house of cards? Probably not. but some on here act as if we will.

Thats what it seems like

I will never flip flop on JOHN FOX. My stand stays the same

[Wither]

Do you think that john fox is not stubborn or over loyal to players? players that have played for him have said he is extremely loyal to players. you can always ask dan morgan if you want.

I believe it, but those are still opinions that have probably passed through another person or two. First hand opinions are a bit more concrete and I just don't see why everyone latches onto these opinions as if they are fact. Sure, accept them as reality and use them with some discretion, but just throwing it around like it's the word of god? Also, I didn't really mean you in this regard. This isn't the first time I've complained about this same exact thing.

Also, the dude was talking about you not owning the thread. Of course you started it, he meant more along the lines of "you can't control this thread - it's open to everyone and you do not own it." At least, that's what I interpreted it as.

[carolinanimal]

I believe it, but those are still opinions that have probably passed through another person or two. First hand opinions are a bit more concrete and I just don't see why everyone latches onto these opinions as if they are fact. Sure, accept them as reality and use them with some discretion, but just throwing it around like it's the word of god? Also, I didn't really mean you in this regard. This isn't the first time I've complained about this same exact thing.

Also, the dude was talking about you not owning the thread. Of course you started it, he meant more along the lines of "you can't control this thread - it's open to everyone and you do not own it." At least, that's what I interpreted it as.

ok. thanks

What is also funny about the situation with fox is no vote of confidence or anything said from jr. if he is such a good coach and you have confidence he will bring you a superbowl, why not extend him? you can write a contract with a clause that protects them in case of a lockout. Why not keep a good head coach and lock him up right now? why send him into the season basically auditioning to come back?

that to me just doesnt sound right.

[panthers55]

thats your opinion of my posts. no one else has said i am a idiot for making this, only you. so by your definition they must be idiots too.

i didnt start this thread?! who is carolinanimal then? i am so confused!!!:confused:

i know winning changes things. but after only 4 games of winning, after several losses have people changed so drastically. i asked the questions to get an answer. if you dont like them dont respond. there are plenty of other threads where your vast knowledge can be used. :smilielol5:

I don't hear anyone saying they think Fox is great. Do you?? I hear that people are saying lets see what happens next year. People are not as negative as they were because Jake wasn't playing and we won with Moore. It isn't that complicated.

Also, the dude was talking about you not owning the thread. Of course you started it, he meant more along the lines of "you can't control this thread - it's open to everyone and you do not own it." At least, that's what I interpreted it as.

Exactly. Typically folks who start a thread take everything personally and think they have to respond to everyone and defend it. people start threads all the time good or bad, but they don't own them. Plus most threads morph into topics and areas very different from the original intent most of the time.

ok. thanks

What is also funny about the situation with fox is no vote of confidence or anything said from jr. if he is such a good coach and you have confidence he will bring you a superbowl, why not extend him? you can write a contract with a clause that protects them in case of a lockout. Why not keep a good head coach and lock him up right now? why send him into the season basically auditioning to come back?

that to me just doesnt sound right.

I am sure Fox would sign an extension which pays him nothing in the event of a lockout. You can write anything you want but it doesn't mean Fox would sign it. Seriously???

As for why are they not giving him an extension? Our new president is giving him next year while he acclimates himself to the position. By then he will know who he wants. The fact that it aligns with the lockout potential is another reason not to extend at this point. If Fox leaves there will be other candidates lined up for the job both internally and externally.

[PhillyB]

the reason is very simple:

fox has shown that foxball works.

when your defense plays lights out, you have a powerful ground game and a quarterback that's good enough to make throws when he needs to, you win games. and they're usually pretty fun to watch.

the last four or five games of the season were a display of aerial firepower and smashmouth runs... EXACTLY how foxball works. we blew out the freaking VIKINGS and blew out the giants even worse. fox's problem is not his actual philosophy but his stubbornness; in this case, hanging onto jake delhomme. and a whole lot of people are realizing that Fox minus jake plus matt moore = big wins.

me personally? i don't have an overly strong opinion one way or another. i recognize that fox has his share of problems and he can be highly frustrating. but i also think if he comes back next year, we'll have an extremely good year.

[Cape Fear Cat]

I think the problem is that with the team actually looking like contenders, it is difficult to justify firing Fox. Then you putting a team, ready to contend through a complete overhaul of systems and potentially taking them away from being contenders.

The things that frustrate me about Fox are still there and if the team did not perform so well at the end of the season against quality opponents, then I would want him out. Now though, I would rather see this team succeed.

I think this sums up my feelings, too. I just can't help thinking that the team is on the cusp of something special, and the best way to nurture that is to keep the existing chemistry intact. Stubborn as he can be, Coach Fox is a top-tier NFL HC. I say lets go another year and see how we do without all the injuries, and with a year for new schemes and personnel to gel. It seems to me the Panthers are tantalizingly close to being something special. I'd like to see if Coach Fox can get us there.:yesnod:

[blackcatgrowl]

the reason is very simple:

fox has shown that foxball works.

when your defense plays lights out, you have a powerful ground game and a quarterback that's good enough to make throws when he needs to, you win games. and they're usually pretty fun to watch.

and a whole lot of people are realizing that Fox minus jake plus matt moore = big wins.

i also think if he comes back next year, we'll have an extremely good year.

Yeah, "foxball" as you call it, is actually just Smashmouth football that has been used for 40 years by some of the greats out there. I'd attribute Madden with more credit for this formula than Fox.

And to that point, the formula isn't the problem. The problem is how Fox uses the formula. Like sticking with Delhomme for 11 games despite repeated performance flaws. Or sticking with DeShawn Foster for all of 2007 despite his performance flaws.

The reason Fox hasn't had back to back winning seasons is because he is inflexible, and conservative with his player roster and play calling. Obvious problems with the team are not addressed in a timely manner and adjustments are made way too late to save a season or even a game.

Though I hate him, Bill Belichick is a prototype of how a coach should manage his roster, both during the season and off-season. If Tom Brady threw 8 picks in two games, you'd see him warming the bench. Not being hailed as "our best chance to win".

Andy Reid is also another great coach in this respect. McNabb played like ass in 2008, and started acting like an ass, so Reid benched him. Their season was salvaged and they made it to the NFC Championship game. Now, a year later, the team is in the playoffs and has drawn favorites in some pools to go all the way.

So the problem isn't how Fox describes what he wants to do with a team. It's how he does it.