It's official: Sean Payton > John Fox

[CatMan72]

Heard Trent Dilfer (who I really like as an analyst) make a good point regarding Payton.....to paraphrase, he said he is one of those guys that is constantly changing and trying new things in order to continue to get better. Some work and some don't but he is always evolving. He said coaches that get to the point where they refuse to change and try new ideas are as good as done in the NFL. I think you can pick out those coaches in the NFL that seem to fit that mold.

Agreed, evolve or die - it's the same reason Tiger Woods is constantly tweaking his golf swing.

[Saint J]

Nothing worse than a front-runner, isn't there a "New Orleans Huddle" site out there somewhere that you can go to gloat with your fellow Saints fans?

How bout we give you Delhomme and you send us Brees and we'll see how great of a coach Sean Payton really is?

evaulating talent is part of being a coach.

[frash.exe]

Success had made Payton into a bit of a prick even before the Super Bowl victory (some of his media dealings were the clearest evidence of that). Villain though? That's a bit much. Gregg Williams is probably closer to that mold than Payton.

Regardless, Payton can claim "coach of the year" status for winning the Super Bowl, but reality is that he benefited from a lot of things (luck included) to get there, same as any coach does.

That said, he's the same guy who went with a pass heavy plan against the Bears in their last NFCC appearance when the Bears were weaker against the run. Tony Dungy took the correct approach in the Super Bowl and won it.

Is he infallible? Far from it. He's made his fair share of mistakes, this year included.

Is he good? Absolutely. So are a lot of coaches who didn't win the Super Bowl this year, Fox included.

Better than Fox? He has the better accomplishment at this point, but that doesn't by itself mean anything for next season.

(and again, I say all that as a guy who wanted Fox gone)

All that is pretty true. People will always keep this debate open-ended and five years down the road Fox may look like a better coach, but for the same people arguing that superbowls don't factor in all the way so it's not enough to make it "official", did you ever agree for a time period the last four seasons that Fox was "officially" better than Payton? And what was the difference? Playoff wins? NFCC game appearances? I'm not saying Payton will always be better at this profession but as it stands right now, he is better than John Fox ever was.

I know people don't want to think the answer can be that simple but nobody's remembered as a great head coach for only how good their running game always was, or how their defenses always played physical. Not even consistency in playoff qualification gets you remembered among the elite (sorry Andy). It takes a lot of effort out of a coach to get his team to win the big game, and Fox certainly hasn't reached that level of prestige. You could argue until you're blue in the face about strength of opponents, roster talent, anything you want, but nobody's going to give Fox a trophy and cigars for fielding a perpetual also-ran while being employed in what his biggest fans seem to love describing as one of the most disadvantageous job descriptions in the NFL: The head coach of the Carolina Panthers.

[frash.exe]

evaulating talent is part of being a coach.

and to that effect, i think i do recall the same offseason Payton was hired he turned over more than half the roster and ended up making the conference championship game his first season.

[Mr. Scot]

All that is pretty true. People will always keep this debate open-ended and five years down the road Fox may look like a better coach, but for the same people arguing that superbowls don't factor in all the way so it's not enough to make it "official", did you ever agree for a time period the last four seasons that Fox was "officially" better than Payton? And what was the difference? Playoff wins? NFCC game appearances? I'm not saying Payton will always be better at this profession but as it stands right now, he is better than John Fox ever was.

I know people don't want to think the answer can be that simple but nobody's remembered as a great head coach for only how good their running game always was, or how their defenses always played physical. Not even consistency in playoff qualification gets you remembered among the elite (sorry Andy). It takes a lot of effort out of a coach to get his team to win the big game, and Fox certainly hasn't reached that level of prestige. You could argue until you're blue in the face about strength of opponents, roster talent, anything you want, but nobody's going to give Fox a trophy and cigars for fielding a perpetual also-ran while being employed in what his biggest fans seem to love describing as one of the most disadvantageous job descriptions in the NFL: The head coach of the Carolina Panthers.

The biggest issue for me is that people oversimplify like crazy.

Going strictly by Lombardis, Barry Switzer would rank as a better coach than Marv Levy. Heck, so would Sean Payton.

(both of those ideas are, of course, just plain nuts)

To this point in his career, Payton has coached four seasons. Two of them have been winning seasons (not back to back) while the others were 7-9 and 8-8. His postseason record is 4-1, which is pretty good, but compiled over only two seasons. Overall, that's good, not great, but folks on here make it sound like he's a god.

Realistically, one Super Bowl appearance with a victory puts him in the class of Jon Gruden, Brian Billick and Mike Tomlin. After their respective trips to the mountain, Gruden and Billick sunk into mediocrity. Tomlin is still a work in progress. Payton? We'll see in the seasons to come.

In short, he's good, but it's a bit early to be readying his bust in Canton.

[Saint J]

billick was an offensive coordinator who inherited a great defense

tomlin inherited a great team from cowher

gruden inherited a great team from dungy

Payton build the Saints to what they are today, horrible comparisons.

[Mr. Scot]

billick was an offensive coordinator who inherited a great defense

tomlin inherited a great team from cowher

gruden inherited a great team from dungy

Payton build the Saints to what they are today, horrible comparisons.

It's not like it was a steady climb.

Payton's early success was followed by a two year skid. The past two seasons the team Payton built was one that had a solid offense and a defense that couldn't stop anybody. It wasn't until he brought Williams aboard that they finally got some ability to prevent teams from outscoring them.

Bottom line: This is the class of coach he's in right now with one trophy. And I could throw Barry Switzer in that group too.

He'll rise above that group if he proves he can do it again. Till then, this is where he's at.

He might be better. He might not. For now though, it's all theory.

[Saint J]

quit beating around the bush and say what you want to, darin

[John Fox]

Probably trying to even the playing field since many of the Panthers were juiced up on steroids at that time. Selective memory?

6 guys were roided up, and one of them was a practice squad player. The only one who was decent that got caught was Wesley Walls.

[top dawg]

Scot, if you think that this is just about an onside kick, then you're missing the whole point. Any coach worth his salt can come up with a pretty effective game plan on paper, but it's the game time adjustments from the sidelines that give your team the best opportunity to win that makes great coaches.

There are some, even in this thread, who believe that the Panthers are better on paper than the Saints when you look at each position. They are probably thinking that Payton did more with less, and John Fox did less with more (and, going off on a tangent, he should have done more with Moore).

Anyway, I am a Panthers fan, so I am not going to belabor the point, but suffice it to say that the Saints FO, including Sean Payton, made some excellent personnel decisions in putting together their own puzzle that led them to the championship, especially having the foresight to attain a fantastic QB in Brees. This team was the team that Payton built. It wasn't a mistake. They acquired the pieces and followed it through, all the way to the championship.

Fox and his cohorts have had the opportunity to build a championship team for years, but haven't gotten it done, like it or not. And, don't give me that execution argument because it's a coaches job to make sure his guys execute. If his guys aren't executing, then he needs to replace them with guys that can. Fox has been a good coach, for sure, but he has made some piss poor decisions during the last four years----the preponderance of which have been from the sidelines. Until he raises the Vince Lombardi trophy in the air, he gets no more benefit of the doubt.

OK, Scot, let me voluntarily capitulate to your first point about my original post. You're right. Is that what you want me to say? You're right.

Now, let's address the above post. I'm sorry, dude, make all the rationales that you want. The fact is that Payton is a visionary, and John Fox is a conservative curmudgeon who is so conservative that he can't even live up to the "ill-tempered" part of the definition.

[CatMan72]

evaulating talent is part of being a coach.

Oh, you mean like using the 2nd overall pick on Reggie Bush?

...Fox took DeAngelo Williams 25 picks later.

Payton knew Brees had the talent, the only question was the shoulder and he got lucky on that one... Brees failed the physical he had in Miami.

What did Fox have to go on when he pullled Delhomme off of your bench?

All I'm saying is that it's easy to look like a great coach when you have a great QB and it's easy to look like a bad coach when you have a bad QB.

[CatMan72]

...you can argue that Fox should have given Jake the hook much sooner, but I would argue that if Brees started struggling like Delhomme did, it would take Payton just as long to give him the hook.

[monstercat]

If Payton is really a genius, then why did it take him so long to realize that you need to call a running play every once in awhile and play some good defense to win a championship? The formula has been there for all to see for years and years.

[fft22]

If Payton is really a genius, then why did it take him so long to realize that you need to call a running play every once in awhile and play some good defense to win a championship? The formula has been there for all to see for years and years.

He simply did not have the personnel to run the ball effectively in his first few years. He and Micky Loomis built the O-line, and along with it, the running game, from the ground up. Evans, Nicks, and Bushrod are all Payton draft picks. Goodwin was a FA signing. The only guy who was there when Payton took over was Stinchcomb, who went from being a bench warmer to a pro bowler under Sean Payton.

Same with defense. It has pretty much completely turned over since Payton took over. The only starters left are Charles Grant and Will Smith. Everyone else is a Payton guy. I think we can agree that the Saints defensive personnel from 2006-2007 was pretty terrible, and it was pretty mediocre in '08. Now that we finally have some personnel and a decent coach, the D is doing what it needs to do.