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John Fox's future with the team

frash.exe

By frash.exe,
in Carolina Panthers

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frash.exe Apprentice

frash.exe

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Now it's been suggested over and over again that Fox is inept, can't field a consistent winning football team, etc, etc, and it's also been suggested that Fox is a top 5 coach, almost won the superbowl, etc etc etc on this board for so long that I can't remember when anybody had a uniform opinion.

Here's the idea. Fox will not be fired from the Panthers' FO, unless something disastrous happens like a 2-14 campaign in 2009. But to all you Fire Foxes, don't lose hope, because approximately 2 seasons from now, in 2010, Fox's contract expires. That means, Fox could walk away from the team and the FO won't owe him any money.

Let's be honest, the FO is trying to save money. Now whatever reservations or opinions they have about Fox can be swayed by the fact that he's being payed one of the higher contracts for a head coach in the league. It's easy for us to say "Fire him!!!! Blah blah blah" because we're not shelling the money that's directly paying the guy. To us, Fox is a leader of our football team, and when something like that most atrocious display of organized football I've ever seen last Saturday, we have a right to be disgruntled. We have a right to be pissed. We have a right to expect something more. But to the FO, Fox is an investment. Now show me how it makes sense for them to fire a head coach who went 12-4 in his last regular season and that they're going to pay him x amount of millions of dollars a year. They're either going to pay the guy for coaching the team or they're going to pay the guy to not coach the football team. If I know what I think I know they are obligated to pay that amount of money to him no matter what they decide to do, and if i'm wrong, consider this thread moot. But, assuming I'm right, I don't care how rich you are, if you are willing to throw money away here and there pretty soon you're going to end up broke.

Now, he might get extended this offseason, or he might not. Who knows. If he doesn't, a weak 7-9 or 8-8 campaign in 2009 won't get him extended either. 2 seasons in a row like that, or worse, would give the team even less incentive to lock him up. So what that means, is that either Fox is going to win the Superbowl within the next two years, or at the very least, he will walk away from the franchise and the Panthers will dawn on a new era.

Do I have no faith like I said I didn't in Fox last week? Yep, I still feel that. Sadly, as much as I'd like to believe in a cinderella storybook SB win in 2009 or 2010, Fox's refusal to tweak any weaknesses in his system and his utter ignorance and dismissal of improving certain positions he deems "not as important as others" will be his ultimate downfall. And maybe I shouldn't expect anything. That way if they actually do go out there and bring a Lombardi to Charlotte, the victory will be that much sweeter. But in the meantime, his philosophies and beliefs aren't good enough to attract one very important piece of the puzzle to this team, and it basically took a better offer from another team to remove one of his position coaches. The guy wants to win, he just refuses to make the moves when necessary.

Now with all that said, I've got one question to ask: Where the hell is J-Vic? I'd like to see his synopsis on Fox after that playoff loss.

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carpanfan96 Grand Master

carpanfan96

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It is really sad when you have to motivate somebody with losing their job. With the turnover that happens in the NFL, you think that wold be motivation enough.

yea you would think that, and for the most part it is. Just most coaches end up in bad situations or drive the players away eventually. Fox on the other hand is always calm and cool. It is what it is.

I see your still changing the Avatar. Nice actually pretty funny who's peppers.

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frash.exe Apprentice

frash.exe

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It is really sad when you have to motivate somebody with losing their job. With the turnover that happens in the NFL, you think that wold be motivation enough.

My prominent frustration with Fox, as is with most other people, is that when he can pool his concentration together, he can come up with a damn good hot streak and really put something special together. The problem though, is that he gets complacent the more time goes on and the more glaring the weaknesses get, and if he does decide to make changes at all, he does it after losing, or by the time it's wayyyyyy overdue.

Fox can be brilliant at times, but we need him to be brilliant more often, in order to get this team to the next level and make it reach it's full potential. We need a coach who can do that also.

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frash.exe Apprentice

frash.exe

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I like John Fox but if the Panthers don't make the playoffs and have a 8-8 or worse record.....your new coach will probably be that guy that spits alot. lol

I think when it ends with Fox here, both sides are going to be a tad bitter about it. And they won't blatantly express it in the media, but it will manifest itself in subtleties. Fox sounds like the kind of guy who gets pissy when people critique him. You see him get testy in his transcripts when people ask him questions that focus on his body of work, especially after a loss.

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frash.exe Apprentice

frash.exe

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Under fan's take, non-existent.

Under Jerry Rishardson, I'd say a few more years...

I'd say if they are going to extend him, it'll most likely happen this offseason. If not, they might be taking a wait-and-see approach, and 2 sub-par seasons like the ones previous to 2008 could convince the FO to let him walk.

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mantal Newbie

mantal

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I'd say if they are going to extend him, it'll most likely happen this offseason. If not, they might be taking a wait-and-see approach, and 2 sub-par seasons like the ones previous to 2008 could convince the FO to let him walk.

Naw, silly, Fox isn't going anywhere anytime soon, that's just a fact, might as well get used to it He's produced the best record any coach has had before mpww fpr this organization, he's gold, he'll get his as much as we may hate to admit it. If he can bring us into the playoffs every year, win or not, he will be there, you just gotta understand that and climbe on board, it's just the way it is. If he fails the playoffs, different story, but as long as he puts us in, he'll be heare...

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frash.exe Apprentice

frash.exe

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Fox needs to go, and I type that without any hate or emotional stake in the matter. He simply cannot take the team to another Super Bowl (let alone win it) with the kind of conservative play-calling that has now cost us two defensive all-stars in Jenkins and Peppers. I wouldn't want these players back either way, but it's hardly comforting when your team is consistently cast into the national light as a bad place for defensive players to go. PR isn't the issue; what's causing the bad PR is.

I can't help but think what's behind the fact that every season, former players talk subversively about the team.

Peppers feels he isn't being used to his full potential.

Jenkins noted a lack of passion and sense of complacency in the locker room in 2007.

Buckner's been getting digs in and criticizing the coaching staff ever since he retired after 2005.

It's funny everybody didn't trust Keyshawn because he has a big mouth. But I don't remember him saying anything bad about Fox or the FO after he was released. The only thing was the Henning goes, I go ultimatum he gave at the end of the season.

Then Fox says he's never held players back. But if Fox supporters tell us to take everything he says in PC with a grain of salt, why should we believe that?

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frash.exe Apprentice

frash.exe

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Naw, silly, Fox isn't going anywhere anytime soon, that's just a fact, might as well get used to it He's produced the best record any coach has had before mpww fpr this organization, he's gold, he'll get his as much as we may hate to admit it. If he can bring us into the playoffs every year, win or not, he will be there, you just gotta understand that and climbe on board, it's just the way it is. If he fails the playoffs, different story, but as long as he puts us in, he'll be heare...

Well until his signature is on a contract extension, your assertions and predictions are worth nothing, and mine aren't either. All they are after all is an opinion, and those are a dime a dozen. But you see the difference between me and you is, I don't go about spewing that my foresight is 100% true and concrete, meanwhile you sound like you drink coffee with Jerry Richardson over small talk every morning.

bet I'd love to know how sure you were last year that Peppers was going to be a career panther.

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    • electro's horse
      The Bryce Young "Game Winning Drive" narrative needs to end

      By electro's horse · Posted

      This is something that has irritated me for a while. I'm going to address his play during these "game winning drives," 8 of them apparently, clear up some nomenclature, and address some points specifically. The games in question.  Also responding to this  What is a Game Winning Drive? This is an undefined term and therefore can be whatever the person using it wants it to be. The term itself removes context from a result which lends itself to be used by people arguing in bad faith. Some people like to attribute every time Bryce is on the field in a situation like this to him "winning the game," or just kind of associating him with a "Game Winning Drive" and leaving it open ended. There's no criteria for what a GWD is. If you had a spectrum of what this could encompass it, on one end you'd have a single player being responsible, and on the other you'd have all 11. Put another way, a QB going 9/9 for 99 yards and rushing the final yard himself is on one end of the spectrum, and on the other is the blocking tight end who was just kinda there. Hey, he was on the field too.  For these purposes, I'm going to hedge and say a GWD is something you know when you see it. I'm not going to claim Bryce hasn't had one, but I'm absolutely not going to give him credit for every one of them. Reasonable people can disagree at the margins, but generally I think we'll be in accord more than not. I also want to look at the context of these, because I think we need to keep in mind how the team got to that position. There's a certain "mystique" about the term game winning drive. Like all of a sudden, when the game is on the line, the QB just turns it on and becomes a better player and blah blah blah. Nothing else matters because he Just Wins Games It neatly ignores the circumstances that led to a team needing a last second drive against some of the worst teams in the league, and this should be taken into consideration. This was an argument made in favor of Delhomme for years...until a certain game that we won't mention.  In reality, defenses are tired by the end of the game, defensive coordinators will generally give up yards in exchange for clock, and offensive playcallers will be more aggressive. That's really it.  But Fiz, why now? Why tonight? People are building this narrative about Bryce Young because it allows them to overlook the rest of his performance, his role in getting the team into whatever hole they're trying to crawl out of, and minimizing the contributions of everyone else (or assigning blame to players other than him) to make him look like he's better than he is/being let down. People in the national media with motivations I can only speculate on are doing this and it's irritating. Also it's very slow at work tonight and it's either this or reruns of ER.  I'll be looking at the final drives here (more or less) when the Panthers were in a position to win or tie. I'll also be adding some context as a I go. So lets just look at these.  2023 Houston at Carolina - 5/10 41 yds, FG  The Panthers drove to the Houston 44, then ran it 6 times in a row for the final 12 yards before the Texans started diving offsides. Panthers weren't just killing clock; Bryce had already taken one sack on the drive (six on the day!), and I don't think any of us feel like Pineiro had a 60 yarder in him in 2023. He did have 5 FG in him though, which is all the scoring the Panthers could muster. It was enough.  Game Winning Drive: eh, Bryce didn't really cover himself in glory here. If you think getting the team into range for a 60 yard attempt before letting the RB finish the job is a GWD, then we're going to have some problems. I'm generally kinda dubious of the whole "wow he set up a long range field goal for the win what a legend." Why yes early career Tom Brady was a fraud carried by Adam Vinatieri why do you ask  Atlanta at Carolina - 5/6 53 yds, GW FG Game Winning Drive: yeah, I think so. It was a miserable 9-6 win against the Desmond Ridder led Atlanta Falcons. Prior to this final drive, Bryce was a whopping 13/18 for 114 yds and the offense had managed 6 whole points. Hard for me to say here they weren't in the position to need a GWD because of how ineffective Bryce was. That said, I think it's fair he did this one on his own. Credit where credit's due little guy, you did it.  2024 New Orleans at Carolina - 1/4, 38 yds Game Winning Drive: not really. Panthers win 23-22. 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I don't want to re-litigate this. Briefly, the Dolphins have a historically bad defense, the Panthers were only trailing because of how badly Bryce played, the defense bailed the team out, and Rico was clearly the MVP. Trying to sneak this into a narrative about Bryce and his game winning drives is an attempt to hide how completely dogshit he was for most of the game. On second half drives to start, Bryce went.... 0/1 passing, took a sack, FG 2/3 passing, 18 yards, Delay of Game on Bryce, punt 2/2 passing, 16 yards, took a sack, punt  1/3 passing, 4 yards, punt  1/1 passing, 4 yds, 2 defensive penalties, 43 yd run by Rico, 1 yd TD run Absolutely dismal performance Dallas at Carolina - 3/6, 25 yards, FG  Game Winning Drive: Panthers had 34 yards rushing on this drive, and Rico rushed for more yards on the day than Bryce threw. People will want to point to the 7 yard slant to Renfrow, but that's one moment. 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The defense picked off the Cardinals late in the 4th quarter at their 11 yard line after the Panthers went 3 and out, including a classic Bryce check down short of the line to gain on 3rd.  About half of the time, it looks like these GWD, whomever is responsible for them, are happening in part because of what Bryce did or didn't do. I don't think league average QB play is too much to ask for. Panthers usually win these games despite of Bryce; he's an obstacle to be overcome.  Stats Taken in totality, in these situations Bryce's stats are  7 games 17/26 passing for 233, 1 TD  65% completion rating  13 ypc 8.9 ypa I'm not going to compare this to league average, I'm just going to point out you'd expect someone with 8 GWD to have more than 1 TD.  Other side of this  but what about the games in a similar situation where they DIDN'T win? Shouldn't we look at those games too? 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      By MHS831 · Posted

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      Trap game

      By TheSpecialJuan · Posted

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