The Dowdle Mirage - Play Calling Problems

[tukafan21]

10 minutes ago, mc52beast said:

So basically what you’re saying is we won despite Canales sucking and Rico getting lucky on a few carries… on to the much hated Cowboys

In a sense, but I'd say it's more like we won because the Dolphins were just a worse team and because Evero made the adjustments needed to keep the game close enough to have a chance.  

Which, again, is my point and the same one I was making after the Falcons game.  

Winning in spite of your mistakes because the other team made worse mistakes, is not something that gets me excited moving forward, it just makes me more concerned, particularly when this coaching staff has already shown that they don't fix their mistakes moving forward week to week.

And, as I've said, I'm just done "enjoying wins" because we got a win, despite not actually looking good while doing so.

I want to get into the playoffs again, I want to contend for SB's.  To me, showing improvement and looking good, but still losing in the end, would make me happier and more excited for our future than backing into wins against bad teams in spite of our own issues.  Not a single thing about this win gives me hope about our long term future, but numerous things happened throughout the game that give me cause for concern.

And that's not me saying I want losses for draft positioning, I'd still rather win those games, but if it's look good and lose or look bad and win, it's an easy decision for me to look good but lose.

This season was never meant to be about winning games, it was about showing improvement, which is 100% something you can do in losses, just as you can show regression in wins.  I don't care about winning or losing this year, I care about improving as a team, record aside.

To me, this is a season where showing improvement is a win, showing regression (or the same mistakes) is a loss, the actual win or loss is irrelevant to me because we're not a contending team right now, that's when wins and losses matter.

Edited 2 hours ago by tukafan21

[Icege]

1 hour ago, tukafan21 said:

Two separate issues

Yes, T-Mac 100% needs to be fed more, 8 targets out of 30 attempts when he's the only legitimate receiving threat right now is just dumb, but that has zero bearing on Rico's game.

Again, 6 good plays by Rico does not make for a well called game by Canales, I don't understand why that's so controversial of a thing to say.

Rico had a great game and final stats because he made a handful of great plays, not because Canales kept the Dolphins on their heels and because of it we ripped off constant 8-15 yard runs.  Had that been how he put up the 200+ yards, I'd be the first person to jump on here and congratulate Canales for calling a great game, but that's just not how it played out.

It's giving credit to Rico for the game he had, but still living in reality in the totality of the play calling of Canales from opening kick off to the final whistle.  Outside of those few runs, you can't tell me you weren't screaming at the TV for the majority of the game with Canales boring and predictable play calling (and play design).

That's all I was trying to say with this thread, that we can't give Canales a pass because Rico broke off a couple big plays, he still called a complete poo game as the offensive play caller.

As that's exactly what happened a couple weeks ago.  We win 30-0 in a rivalry game and half the fan base starts talking about how we're finally turning a corner and just stuck their head in the grounds to not see the glaring issues that we still saw in that game.  Then we get utterly blown out by a team that wasn't a complete disaster in their own right and fans fall back in disarray.

The most targets any player that wasn't TMac got was 3 (XL, Dowdle). I don't think it's reasonable to demand that he have gotten an additional 4 - 6 targets during a game where an RB went for over 200yds rushing, especially when seven of those 23 carries were for 10+. One of those carries went for over 50+, another 40+, and another 20+.

Canales' play calling wasn't the best, but it is developing as well. That's more than fair to criticize, but there's much better options to choose from than not feeding TMac in a game that resulted in a dub (with 200+ yards gained on the ground).

I think that rather than half the fanbase sticking their heads in the ground to avoid issues that there are some fans with their heads up their ass because all they seem to see is poo.

[jfra78]

I would argue the only way the Panthers can win a game is to have 200 yards rushing

Edited 2 hours ago by jfra78

[tukafan21]

5 minutes ago, Icege said:

The most targets any player that wasn't TMac got was 3 (XL, Dowdle). I don't think it's reasonable to demand that he have gotten an additional 4 - 6 targets during a game where an RB went for over 200yds rushing, especially when seven of those 23 carries were for 10+. One of those carries went for over 50+, another 40+, and another 20+.

Canales' play calling wasn't the best, but it is developing as well. That's more than fair to criticize, but there's much better options to choose from than not feeding TMac in a game that resulted in a dub (with 200+ yards gained on the ground).

I think that rather than half the fanbase sticking their heads in the ground to avoid issues that there are some fans with their heads up their ass because all they seem to see is poo.

post game box score analyzing doesn't tell the full or accurate story though.

He had 1 target in the entire second half, in a game that we were losing into the 4th Quarter.

Take names or how many targets any other individual player got out of it.  In what world does a team with such a talent gap between their top WR and the rest of their pass catching options make for smart play calling when that player gets 1 target in the 2nd half of a game they were losing for the majority of that time?

And again, I said I was wrong to bring up T-Mac in the OP, because it wasn't even about him.  His lack of 2nd half targets are just part of my issue with the play calling, it still felt very predictable and bland throughout the entire game, and THAT is my issue with Canales and where I've seen zero improvement from him.

[tukafan21]

1 minute ago, jfra78 said:

I would argue the only way the Panthers can win a game is to have 200 yards rushing

And if that's the case, then you shouldn't be throwing it 30 times.  But if you do, give your only legitimate WR threat more than 8 of those targets.

Because again, this isn't about T-Mac, it's about the overall play calling.

If we came out and just went very run heavy, with the play design and calling keeping the defense on their heels so we're constantly ripping of 5+ yard carries and sustaining long drives, then I'd be 100% okay with it and not upset with "my guy" not having a big game.

But we didn't do that, we kept running rather predictable plays, with bland play design that wasn't scheming players open or creating open running lanes to constantly get chunk yards in the run game.

It was Rico breaking off a few big plays, partially due to his breaking of tackles, that got him the 200+ yards, NOT Canales' play design and play calling.

Do you see the differentiation I'm talking about there?

[strato]

13 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

In a sense, but I'd say it's more like we won because the Dolphins were just a worse team and because Evero made the adjustments needed to keep the game close enough to have a chance.  

Which, again, is my point and the same one I was making after the Falcons game.  

Winning in spite of your mistakes because the other team made worse mistakes, is not something that gets me excited moving forward, it just makes me more concerned, particularly when this coaching staff has already shown that they don't fix their mistakes moving forward week to week.

And, as I've said, I'm just done "enjoying wins" because we got a win, despite not actually looking good while doing so.

I want to get into the playoffs again, I want to contend for SB's.  To me, showing improvement and looking good, but still losing in the end, would make me happier and more excited for our future than backing into wins against bad teams in spite of our own issues.  Not a single thing about this win gives me hope about our long term future, but numerous things happened throughout the game that give me cause for concern.

And that's not me saying I want losses for draft positioning, I'd still rather win those games, but if it's look good and lose or look bad and win, it's an easy decision for me to look good but lose.

This season was never meant to be about winning games, it was about showing improvement, which is 100% something you can do in losses, just as you can show regression in wins.  I don't care about winning or losing this year, I care about improving as a team, record aside.

To me, this is a season where showing improvement is a win, showing regression (or the same mistakes) is a loss, the actual win or loss is irrelevant to me because we're not a contending team right now, that's when wins and losses matter.

I don’t think you are looking close forceful gs to like. I mean there were some things that happened in the game. Granted it is hard to assess when is against weak competition. 
Overall I agree. Wins can hide watts and looking closer at what those were and what needs to be done to eliminate them is gratifying for hardcore analytical perfectionist types. 

 

[strato]

5 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

post game box score analyzing doesn't tell the full or accurate story though.

He had 1 target in the entire second half, in a game that we were losing into the 4th Quarter.

Take names or how many targets any other individual player got out of it.  In what world does a team with such a talent gap between their top WR and the rest of their pass catching options make for smart play calling when that player gets 1 target in the 2nd half of a game they were losing for the majority of that time?

And again, I said I was wrong to bring up T-Mac in the OP, because it wasn't even about him.  His lack of 2nd half targets are just part of my issue with the play calling, it still felt very predictable and bland throughout the entire game, and THAT is my issue with Canales and where I've seen zero improvement from him.

You overlook the risk of putting the ball in Bryce’s hands going by the day to that point while chewing up yard on the ground. He could have lost it with another fugup. I wouldn’t want to throw unless I had to. 

[tukafan21]

1 minute ago, strato said:

You overlook the risk of putting the ball in Bryce’s hands going by the day to that point while chewing up yard on the ground. He could have lost it with another fugup. I wouldn’t want to throw unless I had to. 

Very fair, but also something I have a "I don't give a poo" attitude about, because I'm so over Bryce and as I've said, this year for me isn't about wins and losses, but improving as a team, which includes individual players getting better.

T-Mac, XL, Coker, Horn Jr, Sanders, and Evans aren't going to get better as pass catchers if they're just out there blocking all the time because we're too afraid of Bryce sucking and costing us games.

If we lose games because Bryce sucks and throws INT's (or fumbles without being touched lol), but all of our pass catching options got a couple extra targets to help expedite their improvement, it's a trade off I'd take 100 times out of 100.

As THAT would then help our future as a franchise, as when we get a real life NFL level QB in here next year, he's getting to throw to players who spent this year growing as players, not having wasted a year of improvement because we're too afraid to let the noodle arm throw the ball.

[Icege]

7 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

post game box score analyzing doesn't tell the full or accurate story though.

He had 1 target in the entire second half, in a game that we were losing into the 4th Quarter.

Take names or how many targets any other individual player got out of it.  In what world does a team with such a talent gap between their top WR and the rest of their pass catching options make for smart play calling when that player gets 1 target in the 2nd half of a game they were losing for the majority of that time?

And again, I said I was wrong to bring up T-Mac in the OP, because it wasn't even about him.  His lack of 2nd half targets are just part of my issue with the play calling, it still felt very predictable and bland throughout the entire game, and THAT is my issue with Canales and where I've seen zero improvement from him.

You are correct that context matters. Let's look at the timing of those six (I accidentally counted one of Etienne's previously) runs of 10+

• 11-yd run | Q2 10:43 (0 - 17)
• 14-yd run | Q2 9:49 (0 - 17)
• 25-yd run | Q2 1:47 (7 - 17)
• 53-yd run | Q3 14:53 (13 - 17)
• 43-yd run | Q4 9:09 (20 - 17)
• 16-yd run | Q4 4:31 (27 - 24)

Q1 the offense basically walked onto the field and then immediately off thanks to Bryce's turnovers, but that's the only quarter that Dowdle didn't rip off a 10+ yard run. I think that's also where folks are basing most of their frustration... because Q1 was straight cheeks. By the half though, it was 10 - 17 with the Panthers set to get the ball to start the half. That's not a situation to get desperate and start flinging it everywhere.

Though not exactly related to the topic, I do have to give Evero credit where credit is due. There were halftime adjustments made that resulted in the Dolphins not being able to mindlessly abuse the defense over the middle. That's not even mentioning how they completely stuffed the Miami run game in the second half as well.

[tukafan21]

4 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Very fair, but also something I have a "I don't give a poo" attitude about, because I'm so over Bryce and as I've said, this year for me isn't about wins and losses, but improving as a team, which includes individual players getting better.

T-Mac, XL, Coker, Horn Jr, Sanders, and Evans aren't going to get better as pass catchers if they're just out there blocking all the time because we're too afraid of Bryce sucking and costing us games.

If we lose games because Bryce sucks and throws INT's (or fumbles without being touched lol), but all of our pass catching options got a couple extra targets to help expedite their improvement, it's a trade off I'd take 100 times out of 100.

As THAT would then help our future as a franchise, as when we get a real life NFL level QB in here next year, he's getting to throw to players who spent this year growing as players, not having wasted a year of improvement because we're too afraid to let the noodle arm throw the ball.

Also, this post is EXACTLY what I wanted to move on from Bryce this offseason and sign Jameis.

Because he'd be slinging the ball all over the field and it would expedite the growth of all our young pass catchers, which to me, regardless of our record, would have made for a "winning" season. 

We all want our long term franchise QB, but if you can't get that, expediting the improvement of the rest of your roster is a solid consolation prize given the state of our franchise.

Edited 1 hour ago by tukafan21

[tukafan21]

5 minutes ago, Icege said:

You are correct that context matters. Let's look at the timing of those six (I accidentally counted one of Etienne's previously) runs of 10+

• 11-yd run | Q2 10:43 (0 - 17)
• 14-yd run | Q2 9:49 (0 - 17)
• 25-yd run | Q2 1:47 (7 - 17)
• 53-yd run | Q3 14:53 (13 - 17)
• 43-yd run | Q4 9:09 (20 - 17)
• 16-yd run | Q4 4:31 (27 - 24)

Q1 the offense basically walked onto the field and then immediately off thanks to Bryce's turnovers, but that's the only quarter that Dowdle didn't rip off a 10+ yard run. I think that's also where folks are basing most of their frustration... because Q1 was straight cheeks. By the half though, it was 10 - 17 with the Panthers set to get the ball to start the half. That's not a situation to get desperate and start flinging it everywhere.

Though not exactly related to the topic, I do have to give Evero credit where credit is due. There were halftime adjustments made that resulted in the Dolphins not being able to mindlessly abuse the defense over the middle. That's not even mentioning how they completely stuffed the Miami run game in the second half as well.

I agree about Evero deserving credit, but that's also unfortunately where I have to say something that I'm sure won't go over well either.

As that's great and all, but honestly, at this point, do we REALLY care about Evero showing improvement in his schemes as a coach other than making our players better individually?

If you're in the same boat as me, and 100% expecting a new HC next year, what our DC does this year with in game improvements is nice in the moment, but pointless in the long term since he'll then also be gone next year, no way a DC gets kept around for 3 HC's no matter what he did that previous year.

So yes, I give him credit and want us to show improvement there, but it's just unfortunately not something I'm going to get excited about either when looking forward into 2026 and beyond, which as I've clearly said, is really all I'm looking at this year, how it sets up our future as a franchise.

Now I'll also be fair there and say if you think Canales and co. will be back next year, then sure, it's something to get excited about, but I just can't see any way Tepper brings him back again.

Edited 1 hour ago by tukafan21

[Icege]

Just now, tukafan21 said:

I agree about Evero deserving credit, but that's also unfortunately where I have to say something that I'm sure won't go over well either.

As that's great and all, but honestly, at this point, do we REALLY care about Evero showing improvement as a coach other than making our players better individually?

If you're in the same boat as me, and 100% expecting a new HC next year, what our DC does this year with in game improvements is nice in the moment, but pointless in the long term since he'll then also be gone next year, no way a DC gets kept around for 3 HC's no matter what he did that previous year.

So yes, I give him credit, but it's just unfortunately not something I care about when looking forward into 2026 and beyond, which as I've clearly said, is really all I'm looking at this year, how it sets up our future as a franchise.

Oh, I'm not 100% expecting/demanding anything for next season. All that I want to see out of this season is progress, but I also understand that progress is not linear. I also understand that we've got a young team and coaching staff that are both developing. Expecting a winning record isn't reasonable at all, but I'll cheer for one all the same.

I think that this is where some of the more angsty fans keep themselves in a perpetual cycle of misery: high expectations leads to low resiliency. Folks can have high standards, and the Panthers + Bryce have not met those standards, but some of those standards are completely realistic (like Bryce has to be built like Cam in order to be successful).

[tukafan21]

5 minutes ago, Icege said:

Oh, I'm not 100% expecting/demanding anything for next season. All that I want to see out of this season is progress, but I also understand that progress is not linear. I also understand that we've got a young team and coaching staff that are both developing. Expecting a winning record isn't reasonable at all, but I'll cheer for one all the same.

I think that this is where some of the more angsty fans keep themselves in a perpetual cycle of misery: high expectations leads to low resiliency. Folks can have high standards, and the Panthers + Bryce have not met those standards, but some of those standards are completely realistic (like Bryce has to be built like Cam in order to be successful).

Yea, I've never had high expectations since we drafted Bryce, so it's not like I'm just upset about not meeting them.

I went into the season wanting to see player improvement and Canales' play design/calling improvement.

I'm now to the point where I 99% only care about seeing individual player improvement.  The 1% is that I unfortunately have to still hope to see Canales play calling improvement, because that is kinda critical for the improvement of all our young offensive players.

Offense is different from defense, you need good play designs and calls to show out.  On defense, everything can be a mess, but a great young player can still stand out and look great.  Our defense can be a mess but still have Horn locking down his guys on the outside, Scourton or Princely winning their pass rushing and pressuring the QB, DB swallowing up multiple blockers.

But it's very hard for any QB, RB, WR, or TE to individually shine when the play design and calling is poo.

Edited 1 hour ago by tukafan21

[RumHam]

don't worry, the tards on panthers twitter think this was the super bowl