Further evidence that WR trumps O-Line as a need (PFF edition).

[Growl]

Good research p4l.

[carpanfan96]

Adding on to my earlier post since it's quite long. There's about 10 #3 WR's in the NFL that I'd take over Lafell right now, another 15-20 #2's that I'd take over him right now and around 3 guys in the draft that I'd take over him right now.

He doesn't have the speed or quick cut route running ability to get consistently open in the NFL which makes him a good #3 or a sub par #2 at best.

[carolina-chuck]

What about the Steve Smith Greg Olsen talk? Those are the first 2 options. You said are not getting open.

Have you seen this league? It's a pass happy league. You gotta have more than 2 guys to get open.

[koolkatluke]

A lot of people keep saying it's not a need or to wait till round 4 or get a late round WR. The Team did the same except for Lafell. Crappy cheap vet's or late round picks hardly ever fix an issue, so yes the team has ignored it. It needs a major Talent upgrade either through a major FA addition or a high draft pick.

Yes, it's one of the worst in the NFL. the year the Panther's were ranked 6th in offense

17 TD's and 1850 yards were from two TE's and Smitty. Another 600 yards to RB's.That's over 60 percent of the passing offense to players not lining up in the WR #2 or Wr #3 spots and the vast majority of the team's touchdowns through the air. On top of that 20% of those passing yards were acquired in the first two games of the season and the team's 3rd ranked rushing attack. 23rd in passing attempts, 18th in completions with 20 drops by the team.

Team preferred to run the ball and the RB's and TE's had a high percentage of the passing offense with little reliance on the WR #2 and wr #3 spots. However the WR #2 spot for the Panther's managed 44 catches for the Panther's and then played in just 4 games in 2012.

2012 season - 16th ranked passing offense in the NFL in yards, 26th in attempts 29th in completions. 24th in scoring through the air.

With 55 percent of the teams yardage to Smitty and Olsen on 49 percent of the targets. 44 targets to the #2 WR for the second straight season, this time to Lafell. (which ranks near the bottom in the NFL btw.) WR #3 and #4 - 27 receptions (again, near the bottom in the NFL) Another 600 yards passing to the RB's which is comparable to WR #2 for the Panther's.

All of the yardage stats are similar to the NFL league averages except for the amount of catches and yards for the WR #2 and #3 for the Panther's.

Compared to ATL, Denver, Dallas and New Orleans who both had 2 1000 yard WR this past season. The Saints and Falcons almost had a third receiver with over 1000 yards. Around 12 teams had two or more WR's (not including TE's) with over 800 yards last season. Seattle, Pittsburgh, Arizona, Green Bay, Miami, Indy, Atlanta, Denver, Dallas, New Orleans, NY, Baltimore, Oakland, Saint Louis, and Philly all had #2 WR's with more yards then the Panthers then Lafell. Most of those teams had a 3rd WR with similar numbers to Lafell plus a TE that got decent catch + yard percentages of the team's passing offense. Washington had 4 WR's over 500 yards compared to just 2 for Carolina. Oakland has 3 WR's with over 500 yards receiving plus a TE over 700 yards. Same thing with over half the league.

A list of about 8 teams had #3 wr with similar or better numbers then Lafell.

I mean seriously if you did all that research you claim you did on option teams, you'd see that Seattle, San Fran, Washington all have better WR corps then Carolina and the Stats back that up. It's seriously one of the worst WR corps in the NFL talent wise. Yea they might have good hands, but they can't get open if it meant saving their lives.

just another note as for the OL people, The panther's were middle of the Pack to top 12 in OL passing rankings based on straight stats. Fix the RG spot with a vet and the OL is fixed.

(Offensive line rankings through NFL.com, ranked 16th in sacks at 36th and 20th in QB hits at 67) Middle of the pack in sacks and in the top 12 in hits allowed.

You are twisting the numbers again to fit your opinion again.

WR numbers:

1. Your not putting the targets, the different schemes or the passing attempts.

When comparing us to ATL and NO. Maybe state that both of their QB had 100+ more attempts then Cam .

Or when talking about schemes mention that only 2 wr in option offense had a 1,000 yards (Smith and Crabtree) and really only 3 had 800 rec. Yards . Not to mention none of those offense had a TE who put up Olsen numbers.

2. More then 60& of the Patriot offense is TE and 1 WR. They have been # 1 or 2 ranked for how long?

3. Show the targets of the GB , Denver, Dallas and NY compared to the Lafell and the other WR after him on the depth chart.

Oline number:

1. Don't just show sacks. Show pressure as well. We all know Cam escape 2 or 3 sacks a game.

Using that stat is misleading.

[koolkatluke]

Have you seen this league? It's a pass happy league. You gotta have more than 2 guys to get open.

What was the offensive passing ranks of the 2 superbowl teams?

What were the passing ranks of all playoff teams?

[koolkatluke]

Kinda hard making that "we have the worst wr corp from the option offences" comment. When we rank 16th in passing and Wash, San Fran , and Seattle ranked (20th,23rd and 27th) in passing offense.

[IamSoClutch]

A lot of people keep saying it's not a need or to wait till round 4 or get a late round WR. The Team did the same except for Lafell. Crappy cheap vet's or late round picks hardly ever fix an issue, so yes the team has ignored it. It needs a major Talent upgrade either through a major FA addition or a high draft pick.

Yes, it's one of the worst in the NFL. the year the Panther's were ranked 6th in offense

17 TD's and 1850 yards were from two TE's and Smitty. Another 600 yards to RB's.That's over 60 percent of the passing offense to players not lining up in the WR #2 or Wr #3 spots and the vast majority of the team's touchdowns through the air. On top of that 20% of those passing yards were acquired in the first two games of the season and the team's 3rd ranked rushing attack. 23rd in passing attempts, 18th in completions with 20 drops by the team.

Team preferred to run the ball and the RB's and TE's had a high percentage of the passing offense with little reliance on the WR #2 and wr #3 spots. However the WR #2 spot for the Panther's managed 44 catches for the Panther's and then played in just 4 games in 2012.

2012 season - 16th ranked passing offense in the NFL in yards, 26th in attempts 29th in completions. 24th in scoring through the air.

With 55 percent of the teams yardage to Smitty and Olsen on 49 percent of the targets. 44 targets to the #2 WR for the second straight season, this time to Lafell. (which ranks near the bottom in the NFL btw.) WR #3 and #4 - 27 receptions (again, near the bottom in the NFL) Another 600 yards passing to the RB's which is comparable to WR #2 for the Panther's.

All of the yardage stats are similar to the NFL league averages except for the amount of catches and yards for the WR #2 and #3 for the Panther's.

Compared to ATL, Denver, Dallas and New Orleans who both had 2 1000 yard WR this past season. The Saints and Falcons almost had a third receiver with over 1000 yards. Around 12 teams had two or more WR's (not including TE's) with over 800 yards last season. Seattle, Pittsburgh, Arizona, Green Bay, Miami, Indy, Atlanta, Denver, Dallas, New Orleans, NY, Baltimore, Oakland, Saint Louis, and Philly all had #2 WR's with more yards then the Panthers then Lafell. Most of those teams had a 3rd WR with similar numbers to Lafell plus a TE that got decent catch + yard percentages of the team's passing offense. Washington had 4 WR's over 500 yards compared to just 2 for Carolina. Oakland has 3 WR's with over 500 yards receiving plus a TE over 700 yards. Same thing with over half the league.

A list of about 8 teams had #3 wr with similar or better numbers then Lafell.

I mean seriously if you did all that research you claim you did on option teams, you'd see that Seattle, San Fran, Washington all have better WR corps then Carolina and the Stats back that up. It's seriously one of the worst WR corps in the NFL talent wise. Yea they might have good hands, but they can't get open if it meant saving their lives.

just another note as for the OL people, The panther's were middle of the Pack to top 12 in OL passing rankings based on straight stats. Fix the RG spot with a vet and the OL is fixed.

(Offensive line rankings through NFL.com, ranked 16th in sacks at 36th and 20th in QB hits at 67) Middle of the pack in sacks and in the top 12 in hits allowed.

ill take this to go please.

good argument

[koolkatluke]

ill take this to go please.

good argument

Of course you will without looking up any of his stats or forming a opinion based on your own work.

[IamSoClutch]

Of course you will without looking up any of his stats or forming a opinion based on your own work.

yea im not about to make this a research project. you didnt disprove any of his stats; you just gave reasons on why they were what they were. ill take his word for it. the fact is if his stats are true, his argument is better than yours.

[carpanfan96]

You are twisting the numbers again to fit your opinion again.

WR numbers:

1. Your not putting the targets, the different schemes or the passing attempts.

When comparing us to ATL and NO. Maybe state that both of their QB had 100+ more attempts then Cam .

Or when talking about schemes mention that only 2 wr in option offense had a 1,000 yards (Smith and Crabtree) and really only 3 had 800 rec. Yards . Not to mention none of those offense had a TE who put up Olsen numbers.

2. More then 60& of the Patriot offense is TE and 1 WR. They have been # 1 or 2 ranked for how long?

3. Show the targets of the GB , Denver, Dallas and NY compared to the Lafell and the other WR after him on the depth chart.

Oline number:

1. Don't just show sacks. Show pressure as well. We all know Cam escape 2 or 3 sacks a game.

Using that stat is misleading.

Not twisting anything, I compared the team to both Seattle and Washington clearly.

Even though Washington, Seattle and SF don't compare at all to Carolina based on pass attempts.

Your Comparison of Read Option teams doesn't work because Carolina threw the ball almost 100 times more then any of the other read option teams in the NFL with 600+ passing yards on the other Read option teams to top it off.

A closer comparison would be to the NYG or Baltimore Ravens, with both of those teams having more then 2 WR's with more then 30 catches plus TE's that took away a ton of targets from other receivers on the team.

Just to float your boat though, here's Seattle more closely then before.

Seattle (Run first team, 23rd in Passing, 3rd in rushing)

Tate - 68 targets - 45 catches - 688 yards - 7 TD

Panther's - ( A more Balanced approach, 9th in rushing, 16th in passing)

Lafell 76 targets - 44 catches - 677 yards - 4 TD

So let's get this straight, a team that threw the ball considerably less still had a better #2. Wow.

SF, Seattle, Washington all threw the ball around 100 times less then Carolina so the schemes don't match at all.

Washington threw the ball 100 times fewer then Carolina as well, but still had 4 WR and a TE with comparable numbers to Lafell.

After Lafell - Carolina has nothing but ST players at WR and Lafell wouldn't be the #2 wr on a bunch of other teams in just the NFC.

" oh and just to note on NE's offense, here's their numbers for you. "

NE's #2 and #3 options both had more receiving yards. #4 option had more targets, #5 option had 55 targets..... Seems like more then just one TE and one WR. That's 2 TE's, 2 WR's and a RB. lol

As for the Oline statistics, the reason advanced statistics have the OL ranked so low is because of run protection. Most advanced stats have the Panther's as the second worst run blocking oline in the NFL while around 20th or so in passing statistics. So have different numbers, but the run blocking was horrendous as was Hangartner playing.

Add that the worst player on the Oline was Hangartner playing center replacing one of the best Centers in the NFL.

[koolkatluke]

Not twisting anything, I compared the team to both Seattle and Washington clearly.

Even though Washington, Seattle and SF don't compare at all to Carolina based on pass attempts.

Your Comparison of Read Option teams doesn't work because Carolina threw the ball almost 100 times more then any of the other read option teams in the NFL with 600+ passing yards on the other Read option teams to top it off.

A closer comparison would be to the NYG or Baltimore Ravens, with both of those teams having more then 2 WR's with more then 30 catches plus TE's that took away a ton of targets from other receivers on the team.

Just to float your boat though, here's Seattle more closely then before.

Seattle (Run first team, 23rd in Passing, 3rd in rushing)

Tate - 68 targets - 45 catches - 688 yards - 7 TD

Panther's - ( A more Balanced approach, 9th in rushing, 16th in passing)

Lafell 76 targets - 44 catches - 677 yards - 4 TD

So let's get this straight, a team that threw the ball considerably less still had a better #2. Wow.

SF, Seattle, Washington all threw the ball around 100 times less then Carolina so the schemes don't match at all.

Washington threw the ball 100 times fewer then Carolina as well, but still had 4 WR and a TE with comparable numbers to Lafell.

After Lafell - Carolina has nothing but ST players at WR and Lafell wouldn't be the #2 wr on a bunch of other teams in just the NFC.

" oh and just to note on NE's offense, here's their numbers for you. "

NE's #2 and #3 options both had more receiving yards. #4 option had more targets, #5 option had 55 targets..... Seems like more then just one TE and one WR. That's 2 TE's, 2 WR's and a RB. lol

As for the Oline statistics, the reason advanced statistics have the OL ranked so low is because of run protection. Most advanced stats have the Panther's as the second worst run blocking oline in the NFL while around 20th or so in passing statistics. So have different numbers, but the run blocking was horrendous as was Hangartner playing.

Add that the worst player on the Oline was Hangartner playing center replacing one of the best Centers in the NFL.

Did you also add in the fact that Wash, and Seattle QB had a 11 to 15 points higher comp. Rate? Do to the safer throws they made and the riskier ones Cam was ask to make. That can explain the attempts an yards. Plus did you note that Seattle nor Washington had a Wr that had Smiths or Olsen's targets or numbers. So while Lafell is comparable to even some of the #1 option on both teams. Neither one has a WR compare to Smith.

Then again we will go back to the scheme only 2

wr in this type offense had 1,000 yards.

Oline again show how many times Cam was pressured and hit.

Better yet show the 1st 5 games when Kail was in the line up. Cam. Still took hits and pressure in the1st 5 games.

[rayzor]

And people want to draft other position as well. But they aren't making threads everyday about it.

Or saying stupid stuff like "if we draft WR people will kill themselves".

Most people will agree with any decision the FO makes in the draft.

So you're no different then anybody else. You have your preference I have mine.

The problem is this whole dumb thinking that people who want WR are more "open minded better human beings". What the fug is wrong with you this is just a game.

ha ha ha ha...someone is taking this poo too seriously and too personally. man you get defensive.

when did i ever say either one of those. if that's what you're taking from that, it's on you.

and i never said i was different than anyone else preference-wise. you just take this anti-WR in the first round thing like you're on a mission from God.

chill out. lol

[carolina-chuck]

Kinda hard making that "we have the worst wr corp from the option offences" comment. When we rank 16th in passing and Wash, San Fran , and Seattle ranked (20th,23rd and 27th) in passing offense.

Yea look at their defense

[carolina-chuck]

KKL gets PO so easily. It's like he's on his man period everyday.