tukafan21

Well sure, that's where the disconnect is then. If Thielen only gets 300-400 yards and T-Mac is healthy for the full season, then I'm with you guys, in that scenario there is absolutely zero excuse for him to not put up over 1,000 yards. In fact, I'll let you double that, if Thielen has only 600 yards, then again, my expectations are for T-Mac to surpass the 1k mark with ease. But his game has never been about his physical abilities, so even if he loses a half a step, he's still the same player who is a savvy route runner who will get open and Bryce will continue to find him due to their chemistry. Particularly since Bryce isn't a QB who forces things, he takes what the defense gives him. So when teams focus on T-Mac and Thielen is more free to find those holes in the defense than he has the last two years, I don't think Bryce is going to ignore him. If someone wants to argue for T-Mac getting to 1,000 yards, personally, I'd say those yards would be far more likelier to come from XL and Coker than Thielen. And that has nothing to do with XL or Coker, but that I'm still a firm believer in Thielen being able to still get 50-60 yards a game, again, particularly as he'll have less defensive attention on him than in either of his 2 seasons with us so far. Just because T-Mac is our #1 of the future who will have the ball forced to him at times, doesn't mean he needs to be forced into that role from day 1 when we have 3 very legitimate WR options next to him. Let the rookie grow into the role and the NFL game, we have that ability to do so because of Thielen, XL, and Coker.

Okay then, tell me what your expectations are for Thielen, XL, and Coker this year If someone wants to come out there and say they think Thielen is only getting 600-700 yards this year, then yea, I'm going to then expect T-Mac to get to 1,000. If someone wants to say they think XL or Coker is going to fall back to 300 yards this year, then yea, I'm going to expect T-Mac to get to 1,000. People seem to think I'm making excuses for why T-Mac can't get there, but it's the literal opposite, my expectations for him stem from my belief our other WRs for the first time in who knows how long. We finally have a legitimate and full WR room, not sure that's happened since the Smitty and Moose days. It's going to make them all better players, but it will also suppress all of their stats as they're all going to cannibalize each other a little bit.

The much shorter and less number analytical version of the above is that the T-Mac pick wasn't about giving Bryce an alpha receiver this season that dominates the targets. It was about shifting the rest of the WRs down a peg in their role to give Bryce better options this year while giving us a true #1 to take over next year when Thielen retires or signs somewhere else. It's to let XL and Coker grow this year as the 3rd and 4th option instead of the 2nd and 3rd option, so that they are then ready to step into those increased roles in 2026. While at the same time it's to allow T-Mac to get used to the NFL game without the pressure on him that those rookies last year had to be THE guy. And that's not to say he can't be THE guy, it's just that if you don't HAVE to do that to your rookie, it's better for the entire team, no matter how good that rookie may or may not be. Expectations are different than real possibilities. It's very POSSIBLE for T-Mac to get to 1k this year, but I think it's unfair to put that EXPECTATION on him leading into the season due to the other options Bryce will have at his disposal this year.

Did you read my post though, I very clearly pointed out why T-Mac is in a situation that is nothing remotely like those 4 last year, so let's try again.... Malik Nabers had 1,204 yards, the next 3 best pass catchers on that team... Wan'Dale Robinson (699 yards), Darius Slayton (573), Theo Johnson (331) Brian Thomas Jr had 1,282 yards, the next 3... Brenton Strange (411), Parker Washington (390), Christian Kirk (379) Ladd McConkey had 1,149 yards, the next 3... Quentin Johnston (711), Josh Palmer (584), Will Dissly (481) Bowers had 1,194 yards, the next 3... Jacoby Meyers (1,027), Tre Tucker (529), Alexander Mattisdon (294) I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert on the games of all those next 3 players behind rookies, but I don't think it's at all a stretch to say that Thielen, XL, and Coker next year will ALL be better than EVERY player on that list with the possible exception of Jacoby Meyers. If you can't see how having Thielen, XL, and Coker on the team will take more targets from T-Mac than Nabers, BTJ, Ladd, and Bowers had taken from them with the rest of their Top 4 options on their teams, then you're just fooling yourself. Even looking at 2 years ago, Puka was the only rookie to get there, and his next 3 leading receivers were Kupp (737 in 12 games), HIgbee (495), and Atwell (483). But this was also with the team having 4,300 receiving yards too, and if we have 4,300 yards in the passing game this year, then yes, I don't care what anyone else gets, T-Mac better be getting 1,000 or it will be a bad season for him. If you can't see that putting expectations on T-Mac in a vacuum because of what past rookies have been able to do, without any regard to the players on the team around him, then that's on you, sorry. So for you then, it sounds like you expect those yard to come from Thielen's total and that's what gets T-Mac over the 1k mark, which is a totally fair and valid prediction or expectation. Again, I'm not saying I don't think T-Mac will get to 1,000 yards. I'm saying it's not fair to have that as the EXPECTATION for him going into the season when you look at the offensive talent we have this year. Those are two VERY different things. If you EXPECT XL or Coker to take a step back and not improve this year, or if you EXPECT Thielen to finally lose a step and not come close to the 1k yard mark himself, then yes, I think EXPECTING 1,000 yards from T-Mac is perfectly acceptable in any or all of those situations and I'd then agree with you myself. But I don't expect those things. I do expect XL and Coker to continue to improve. I do expect Thielen to have one more season of being the same guy he has been for us the last 2 years. He's averaged 60.3 yards per game in his two years here, which would be a 1,025 yard season in 17 games. It's going to be VERY hard if not impossible for XL and Coker to improve, Thielen to be the same player for us, and T-Mac get to 1,000 yards all in the same season. If all 4 of those things happen, then as I've said before, Bryce might be a legitimate MVP contender as it means he's putting up video game like numbers, as it's hard to have 4 WRs who all produce like that in one season. Your argument of T-Mac not getting to 1,000 meaning either he didn't work out or the offense didn't work out, isn't fair, as there is a very real possibility that the offense clicks, all 4 of those WRs work out, and because of it, all 4 of them have suppressed stats this year compared to what they might have been able to put up without one or more of the other guys on the same team.

Two things here I mostly agree that you can't read too much into all the interview stuff the week after the draft, because yea, they're selling the fans on the pick at that point. But I think the initial press conference after the pick can tell you a lot about what they were thinking as they accidentally say a few things certain ways without thinking. And Canales' comments about the 5th pick being big and once they took Mason they thought their guy would drop to them. That wasn't post-pick spin, I think that was just him talking off the top of his head and "gave away" that T-Mac was one of, if not the, top targets the whole time. In regards to why the reports about us trading back if we never would have because we were taking T-Mac... I heard an interview with a former GM the morning of the draft and they said you really can never trust anything you're hearing with regards to that stuff. That teams will "let things leak" to purposefully try and make other teams think you're doing something else far more than anyone actually realizes. I think calling around looking for trades is a good way to make other teams be less afraid of you staying put and taking the guy they want, and thus make them feel it's not necessary to trade up ahead of them to get their guy before you do. I could very well see a scenario where the Cowboys trade up to 7 to take T-Mac if they thought we were going to take him, and since they took an OT when another went at 9 after us, they very well might have made that trade figuring at least one of the two OT's would still be there for them at 12 to take while getting extra picks.

It's a little weird to say both of these things. If Hunter isn't anything close to an NFL corner yet, by your definition then, no rookie in the history of the NFL has faced anyone close to an NFL corner in college and thus should are in for rude awakenings. As the previous post says, all rookies have their welcome to the NFL moment, but that doesn't mean they can't be confident about themselves. What 1st Round WR comes in these days without that "buckle up" type of mentality thinking they're going to crush it from day 1, that's who WRs are, especially the good ones. Yes, playing in a grown man game with be a step up from what he's played in college, but again, that's the exact same thing that every player in the history of the NFL has gone through, it's not like T-Mac is in for some special surprise the rest haven't been.

I can tell you've done your research on him from this post, as I had part of it in that response at first but removed it as for whatever reason I just felt my explanation of what I was trying to say felt clunky and wasn't getting my point across. It's the varying his speeds during routes part. I actually think that's why he had so many people saying he didn't seem like he had urgency in his route running, because he does THAT so well, and I think sometimes people see it and think he's loafing it out there but he's really just playing mind games with the DB's a lot of the time. He was soooooo good at those "I'm going to fake only running a 5-7 yard slant to sit in the hole but half as second before I know the QB is going to throw me the ball I'm going to take off at full speed" type of routes. We loved running those with him, he'd just run a slow short slant while the action is to the other side of the field through a play action or first read to the opposite side, and then he'd just take off on just enough of an angle to give him space on the defender and catch the pass in stride so he never slows down and gets those long strides moving. And yes, he's great at improvising. Part of it is that him and our QB have played together since the 8th grade, but it's also something Bryce excels at so I think the two of them will build chemistry on those fast.

I gave you a full breakdown and examples from last year as to why I think it's unfair to expect 1k from T-Mac this year if everyone stays healthy. But the TLDR version is we will have 4 legitimately good WRs next year, most rookies who get to 1,000 yards don't have any others on the team with them let alone 3 others, it will be hard for him to put up 1k with out the others being injured or falling short of expectations themselves, but in 2026 without Thielen it's different. Because again, I'm not assuming major injuries or games missed when I'm putting expectations out there for the season, I'm assuming good health. If those other 3 WRs combine to miss a lot of time, then yes, he needs to get to 1k in that scenario.

Last year Thielen had 615 yards in 10 games (had more ypg than his 1k season in 23). XL had 497 in 16 games with tons of drops and Coker had 478 in 11. They also only had only 192 of our 518 targets to get those numbers. So if Thielen has 1,000 yards again, XL and Coker each improve to say 600 yards each, and T-Mac comes in at 800 yards, you're going to say that's not good enough? Especially if he ends up with close to, if not getting to, double digit TD's like I think he will, as he's going to be a red zone monster for Bryce? Because if that's the breakdown of just the Top 4 and Bryce plays all 17 games, he's going to be pushing a 4,000 yard season as the TEs, RBs, and other WRs will probably add up to 750-1k yards as well, and I think that would be far more than anyone here could be expecting of him this season. Last year the Giants only had 2 players with more than 331 yards besides Nabers and they were 699 and 573 while Nabers "only" had 1,200 yards (granted in 15 games). While the Jags second leading receiving was a TE with 411 yards and BTJ also "only" had 1,282 but in all 17 games. Odunze couldn't get there (734 in 17 games) with Moore and Allen there, just as McConkey was able to get there because his competition for targets was Quentin Johnson (711 yards), Josh Palmer (584), and Will Dissly (481) who I think Thielen, XL, and Coker are all better than any of them. If everyone stays healthy and XL/Coker have improved, I think Bryce is going to spread the ball around rather than focus on T-Mac in a way that most of the 1k rookies have been able to get. Again I point to MHJ and the Cardinals last year. They had 3,859 yards receiving. McBride had 1,146, MHJ had 885, then their 3rd and 4th in rec yards were 548 and 414. Take the 146 and 85 that McBride/MHJ had over my example for our guys and give them to the other two and they get to 7 yards shy of the 1,200 combined yards I'm using for XL/Coker, while the rest of the team added up to 866 yards. So, if you expect T-Mac to get to 1k, where are you taking those yards from? if anything, XL and Coker each getting 600 yards seems like a low projection, so they wouldn't come from there. Maybe they come from Thielen now that we have T-Mac as the true #1. But I think if anything, having T-Mac draw attention will just make it easier for Thielen to get open and him and Bryce have great chemistry already, he's not going to stop throwing his way if he can pick up easy chunks of yards there. So maybe they come from the RBs, TEs, other WRs, but it's I think a very fair example to show why expecting 1,000 yards if everyone stays healthy isn't necessarily fair to him. It's also why I said I'd then expect at least 1,200 yards in 2026, as once Thielen leave and all 3 of T-Mac/XL/Coker get better, they absorb that 1,000 yards Thielen leaves behind with T-Mac probably taking close to half of it and the other two splitting up the other half.

Sure, he's said that, but what it really means is that he's just going to insist on being a two way player and the Jags want him as such. But he won't be a starter who plays every snap on both sides in Week 1, if at all during his rookie year. This is the NFL, no rookie, no matter how good they might be, is going to be able to go through their first mini and training camps while splitting time on both sides of the ball and be ready to be a week 1 starter and go full time both sides. And if a team does that, then they're dumb. I think their plan is to start him mainly on offense to give Lawrence another weapon, and I'm guessing it means he'll be a rotational CB early in the season, maybe he comes in when they go to nickel, even if he then plays the outside and someone else shifts inside.

lol, a friend of mine texted me after we drafted him and said something like, "so if he fails, will you have to change your name on your message board or go into hiding?" And yea, I've clearly planted my flag on him and what I believe he can be. So while I 100% honestly don't believe it will ever come to it, but yea, if he busts, I'll obviously have to eat crow. But I won't have to, when he's killing it for us for the next decade, everyone who hated on him the last few months will cheer for him and just know in the back of their minds that, "yep, he was right about this kid."

He plays more like AJ Green than either of those two. But to be fair, I did see a number of analysts say that there really aren't a lot of great comparisons for him, that he's a little bit unique. He's more athletic than Evans or London, but doesn't use his physicality of either of them, but he uses it more than guys like Sutton does.

So I'm not sure what goes into the rating and if it's meant does he get open vs the coverage or if it means the targets he gets in those coverages are open or not. As he had so many contested catches this year that were only that because our QB didn't throw it while he was open. Also, if he ever had man coverage, there was always a safety and/or a linebacker who would shade over to give double or triple coverage on him, they never let CB's just out on an island with him because the few times he did, they were automatic completions. So I'm sure that plays a factor into why he struggled to get open more in man, particularly as against a zone, he's VERY good at finding the holes in them and sitting down to give his QB a big target to find. But either way, the #1 thing I've always said he has to improve upon the most is his get off at the line, which absolutely would play a factor in him beating man coverage more often. Which is also why I've been so high on him, because that's something that NFL coaches can get you better at doing at the next level. It's much easier to coach things like that up than a player's hands or overall route running. It's also a reason I think him and Bryce are a great pairing, because with Bryce's anticipation and T-Mac's hands/radius, T-Mac won't need to create huge gaps of separation, all he needs is that small bit of separation and the ball is going to be there on time and he'll pluck it out of the air before the DB can get a hand on him to break it up.

Funny, because I think it's monumentally stupid to go in as a WR and not CB for him for two main reasons. First is that he's very slender, he has a much better chance at having a longer career as a CB than a WR because of that, and if he can't stay healthy as a WR, he's never going to get the huge contracts and play 10 years in the league like he could on the other side of the ball. The second and more important, is that CB is so much more difficult of a position to play at an elite level, you can't keep dipping your toe in and out of the water on that end and expect to be great. So if he's a full time WR, it will be really hard for him to play any CB part time and be successful at it and make it worth their while to let him to continue doing. But if he's a full time CB, it's much easier for them to have a few select packages on offense to where he gets maybe 10 snaps a game, half as a decoy, half getting the ball in creative ways to get him space to work in and make a big play here or there. Because also if that works while being an all pro caliber CB, he'll get paid so much more than any CB due to what else he offers, which then would probably rival top WR money, but have the chance at a much longer career while doing so. He's also just a better CB than he is WR, so why go full time at your weaker position that is easier to do part time and still have success?

I wanted all the smoke LOL As I said a ton of times, when people wanted to bring up legitimate weaknesses, I wouldn't attack them, because it was fair, but I'd also point out why his strengths were also unique and why I felt he still should be the pick. But it was when people would come out with the nonsense that in no way, shape, or form were near remotely accurate, that's when the claws came out, you're not going to besmirch my Wildcat GOAT and get away with it. When you've watched literally every snap of a player's career, half of them just watching him instead of the full play anyways, you can easily tell the people who are talking about him without seeing anything more than maybe a few minutes of highlights. I was never going to let those people get the last word in on him, not a chance, haha.

Well played haha Does it at least make you feel better about us taking T-Mac instead of Golden like you wanted, now that there are all these reports of teams like the Rams and Cowboys badly wanting T-Mac and trying to move up for them, but the Cowboys then passed on Golden and the Rams didn't try to trade up for him either?

First of all, DJ had 788 yards as a rookie And second, KB was playing with Cam the year before he won MVP, and while Olsen had the exact same 1,008 yards as KB that year, next on the list was Cotchery with 580 and then 4th was Philly Brown with 296. KB had 73 receptions on 146 targets that year, THAT'S why he had 1k+ yards, not because he was some dominant WR, there were no other WR options on that team at all. If you say Thielen and Olsen are somewhat equal, particularly in role and ability, then XL/Coker >>>>>> Cotchery/Brown. Yes, T-Mac very well could get there, and this isn't me hedging on the ability of my guy. It's that we should in theory have a lot of good receiving options and in his rookie year, I can see how T-Mac can have a good season but still not get to 1k this year because of it. In year 2 when we lose Thielen and he has that year under his belt, then yea, I'll say right now, I'm expecting a 1,200 yard season at minimum from him in 2026. But I just think expecting 1k this first year given the weapons we have and being a run first offense, isn't fair to T-Mac. Again, just look at MHJ for what an uber talented rookie is likely to do when there is another legit receiving option there. Nabers and BTJ were the only games in town for them last year, Puka the year before had a lot of time as the only option there while Kupp was hurt. If that happens to us next year with Thielen/XL/Coker, then yea, I'll then say T-Mac should get that 1k mark, but I'm not going to make my expectations based on expecting injuries.

So...... what you're saying is I got into 3 months worth of arguments and posting until my fingers hurt from typing out novels each day for nothing? Oh well, T-Mac is still a Panther in the end, totally worth it, LOL.

The Sanders family's problem is that they raised Shedeur to have the exact same mindset and persona as Deion, and then used Deion as the example as to why it's not a problem. Even in that public interview at the combine, he gave some answer like, "do you know who my dad was and the things they said about him and he was still a HOFer?" The problem is his dad was a CB and sometimes a WR, the two positions in the NFL where not only nobody cares if you have that outward persona, in many cases it's something teams look for because WRs and CBs need to have that mentality out there on an island. His interview answer that's been going around about where you see yourself in 5 years, and his response of being Mayor of that town and laughing is a perfect example of it. There is no issue if that's your QB's mentality, we all know how Cam was. The problem is there is a different between mentality and outward persona, and that just flat out doesn't work for a QB to have that persona, Cam didn't even do it. There are a lot of QB's who have that mindset, in particular, Burrow right now strikes me as that kind of guy. But he still knows how to flip that QB Switch and tones it back when speaking publicly and is able to be the face of the franchise. Shedeur and Deion never seemed to grasp that for some reason, and it's a problem. Have you ever heard reports of GM's being asked by defensive players on their team to draft a QB solely because they wanted to crush them in practice? That's wild to even think of, let alone hear about actually happening. QB is unlike any position in all of sports, whether fair or not, you have to act differently when speaking in public or on camera, and Shedeur just doesn't, if anything, he leans even more into his Deion like persona.

First on T-Mac, I 100% expect him to be the top WR from this class, however I think expecting him to put up 1k+ as a rookie isn't necessarily fair, especially since you're putting it in perspective of how many other rookie WRs have done that in recent years. And Thielen is the reason for that. Not many (if any) of those 1k+ rookies had someone like Thielen there when they were drafted, and no matter how good T-Mac is this year, Bryce is still going to lean on his existing chemistry with Thielen unless he's drastically lost a step this offseason and just can't get open like he's been able to in his career. As I pointed out in another thread the other day, looking at MHJ last year is the way to look at T-Mac's season if Thielen plays a full and healthy season. MHJ had McBride "steal" 110+ catches and 1,100+ yards in what was a pass happy offense (Kyler was 9th in the league in attempts), it's going to be hard for any rookie to put up more than the 800ish yards he had last year in that scenario. Especially if we follow a similar game plan to last year and be a run heavy team. In terms of XL, you're completely right, jumping up to get a project 2/3 isn't smart, and if we knew we needed a future slot from that pick, yes, Ladd would have been a much better pick. But at this point, those are all sunk costs, even taking T-Mac at 8 is now considered a sunk cost. Forgetting the past or who we maybe should have taken last year now knowing future roles, I still think T-Mac, XL, Coker can be one of the Top 1-3 WR rooms in the NFL in a few years, I honestly think they really do have that potential in them.

I think taking T-Mac changes how to look at XL and the season he had, especially in retrospect. If you look at his rookie season from the viewpoint of "we traded into the 1st round to take him as our #1 WR of the future" then yea, he had a god awful rookie season and I'd be scared about his future. But we've now drafted T-Mac, it allows us to now go back and look at XL's rookie season in a totally different light. XL was a late bloomer, essentially having only one college season of experience, he was always going to be VERY raw last year. If we knew at the time that one year later, we'd have a true #1 and XL "only needs to be a future #2 and potentially doing it from a power slot position" then I'm not so sure he had all that bad of a rookie season. Because he still had 49 catches for 500 yards and 4 TDs, which really is a pretty darn good rookie season for a player as raw as XL was/is, especially when you consider the QB struggles we had last year, and even once Bryce turned things around a bit, we were still a run based team and Bryce's stats were anything but mind-blowing. Personally, I think it's one of those situations where people are too focused on the negatives with XL and not seeing all the positives and potential he has given how raw he still is. Which is where viewing him as a future #2 vs #1 makes all the difference in the world in looking back on his rookie season and projecting his future role/ability. If he's worked on his craft and cuts back on his drops, it's very reasonable to think he could be a 70 catch, 800 yards, and 5 TD type of player for us in year 3 when he's the #2 after Thielen is gone. How many teams have that type of talent as their #2 WR behind a guy putting up 1,200+ and 10 on a yearly basis as their #1 as I fully expect T-Mac to be doing? Then if Coker also improves slightly and is kicking in 600-700 yards himself, then you've built yourself a Top 5 WR room.

I can tell you EXACTLY where we'd be, as it would have been one of two things to happen. DK Metcalf would be a Panther right now as we'd have made sure to beat out whatever offers were made for him as we'd have that desperate for WR help. Or we'd have still drafted T-Mac but probably would have needed to trade up to get him, as instead of the world thinking we were taking Carter or another defender, everyone with half a brain would have known T-Mac was our top target and some team would have bluffed another trading up to get him to get us to give up picks for him.

Isn't it? LOL

That's surprising to hear. If it took a while to get the T-Mac ones out there I'd have understood, because nobody knew who we would draft, if we took a defensive player there would have been much less demand for jerseys, so stocking up on material the last few months might not have been a smart decision. But when you trade for the #1 pick as long before the draft as we did, and knowing it would be for a QB, I'd think they'd have been stocking up so they could be ready to go right away.

Well, sure, nothing you're saying is incorrect (and yes, professional soccer players would run circles around any NFL player conditioning wise). But if we're comparing Hunter to just NFL prospects, he still might be the best conditioned player to come into the league. Even if he did tire towards the end of games, which would be expected, the overwhelming majority of players couldn't come close to doing what he did and play that many snaps every game. And yes, while WR and CB may be relatively light on contact, they are the two positions you actually run the most on the field and thus require greater conditioning/endurance than other positions. I also agree that he won't be able to play both ways full time, at least long term, but I think it's less about tiring out in games/seasons, as much as I don't think he'll be able to do it and stay healthy. Every season he plays both ways full time, it's the equivalent of playing two seasons for any other player. So if he plays both ways for 5 seasons, he just put 10 seasons worth of wear and tear on his body. His best chance at a great career is a Terrell Davis type, short but super elite before his body just tapped out.