Jump to content
  • Welcome!

    Register and log in easily with Twitter or Google accounts!

    Or simply create a new Huddle account. 

    Members receive fewer ads , access our dark theme, and the ability to join the discussion!

     

Why didn't Clifford play Vonleh??


WOW!!

Recommended Posts

The best thing that could have ever happened to our young players was for them never to see the floor, lest the myth of their ability to produce ever be questioned (lookin at you, Biz.)

The reality is he was viewed as a luxury pick as a project that has all the tools but isn't ready to play at 18 years old. Cho decided that, with a veteran roster pretty much in tow for next season, he could afford to get a Top 5 projected guy who fell to 9. Unfortunately we saw last year why he fell, and truth be told he should have stayed another year in school but that's neither here nor there.

The idea of him being a luxury at that point last draft is important, because you have to recall at the time McBob had just opted out of his contract and the feeling was, because he was viewed as an essential piece by pretty much everyone in the organization and he wanted to be here, that he would be brought back. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, Mcbob left for Miami and, knowing Vonleh wasn't ready, Cho panicked and signed Marvin Williams, who in fairness ended up carving out a role on the team last year, albeit not worth what we paid for him.

Rather than throw Vonleh to the wolves and destroy the kid's confidence in what ended up being a lost season, we let him watch and learn and develop. It goes to show how quickly things can change in the league, because he's gone from being simply a luxury, to a guy we desperately need to actually reach that potential.

Tl;dr:  Cliff didn't play Vonleh because he wouldn't have helped last season and it probably would have destroyed his confidence.

To answer your 2nd thread, I take Vonleh over Cody only because I think we've seen the best Cody will be, while Noah is still largely an unknown.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The best thing that could have ever happened to our young players was for them never to see the floor, lest the myth of their ability to produce ever be questioned (lookin at you, Biz.)

The reality is he was viewed as a luxury pick as a project that has all the tools but isn't ready to play at 18 years old. Cho decided that, with a veteran roster pretty much in tow for next season, he could afford to get a Top 5 projected guy who fell to 9. Unfortunately we saw last year why he fell, and truth be told he should have stayed another year in school but that's neither here nor there.

The idea of him being a luxury at that point last draft is important, because you have to recall at the time McBob had just opted out of his contract and the feeling was, because he was viewed as an essential piece by pretty much everyone in the organization and he wanted to be here, that he would be brought back. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, Mcbob left for Miami and, knowing Vonleh wasn't ready, Cho panicked and signed Marvin Williams, who in fairness ended up carving out a role on the team last year, albeit not worth what we paid for him.

Rather than throw Vonleh to the wolves and destroy the kid's confidence in what ended up being a lost season, we let him watch and learn and develop. It goes to show how quickly things can change in the league, because he's gone from being simply a luxury, to a guy we desperately need to actually reach that potential.

Tl;dr:  Cliff didn't play Vonleh because he wouldn't have helped last season and it probably would have destroyed his confidence.

To answer your 2nd thread, I take Vonleh over Cody only because I think we've seen the best Cody will be, while Noah is still largely an unknown.

Mcbob was gone way before the draft... And I'm talking at the end of the year when Cody was hurt and it was clear that Marvin isn't a PF and Maxsell wasn't in future plans... The kid should have played and Cliff had a BS John Fox complex on that poo... It wouldn't have killed Vonleh to get major minutes at the end of the season.. You get better by being on the court not on the bench...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Mcbob was gone way before the draft... And I'm talking at the end of the year when Cody was hurt and it was clear that Marvin isn't a PF and Maxsell wasn't in future plans... The kid should have played and Cliff had a BS John Fox complex on that poo... It wouldn't have killed Vonleh to get major minutes at the end of the season.. You get better by being on the court not on the bench...

Maybe Vonleh just isn't that good, which goes back to the first paragraph in my post. We don't exactly have a good track record with drafting, and for all the flack Cliff gets regarding rotations, he played PJ OVER Henderson at the start of the season, PJ just lacked defense and made some bone headed decisions and was benched again.

The problem most Hornets fans have is we see a "young" team and therefore it must have "young talent." Since Cho has been here, we have drafted picks 7, 9, 2, 31, 4, 9, 26 and now 9 again. That's FIVE top ten picks with maybe one guy who you can envision as the key defensive stopper on a championship team. The rest are role players at best, and for a team that tanked to go in a completely new direction after Larry Brown, we are right back where we started. Can't draft well, capped out, and a mediocre team.

By the way, if you want to continue using the "We just missed Anthony Davis" draft as a crutch here's Golden State's picks all made AFTER the Bobcats picked:

2012: Barnes 7th (MKG 2nd)

2012: Green 35th  (Taylor 31st)

 2011: Thompson 11th (Biz 7th, Kemba 9th)

The Warriors drafted a championship squad with no pick higher than 7th (including Curry, 7th in 2009.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Me be  Vonleh just isn't that good, which goes back to the first paragraph in my post. We don't exactly have a good track record with drafting, and for all the flack Cliff gets regarding rotations, he played PJ OVER Henderson at the start of the season, PJ just lacked defense and made some bone headed decisions and was benched again.

The problem most Hornets fans have is we see a "young" team and therefore it must have "young talent." Since Cho has been here, we have drafted picks 7, 9, 2, 31, 4, 9, 26 and now 9 again. That's FIVE top ten picks with maybe one guy who you can envision as the key defensive stopper on a championship team. The rest are role players at best, and for a team that tanked to go in a completely new direction after Larry Brown, we are right back where we started. Can't draft well, capped out, and a mediocre team.

By the way, if you want to continue using the "We just missed Anthony Davis" draft as a crutch here's Golden State's picks all made AFTER the Bobcats picked:

2012: Barnes 7th (MKG 2nd)

2012: Green 35th  (Taylor 31st)

 2011: Thompson 11th (Biz 7th, Kemba 9th)

The Warriors drafted a championship squad with no pick higher than 7th (including Curry, 7th in 2009.)

he also played Lance over Henderson so that Pj thing doesn't mean much..  Also Hendo was hurt going into the season and had little  TC practice.. 

But it is obvious Vonleh can play and if he couldn't put him on the court so we can judge his play in actual game time..  You don't know  anything from him being on the bench..  Cliff screwed the pooch and put his personal record over  finding out  and preparing for the future... 

 

Again watch the video  it's obvious this kid has  skill sets that can be developed  into a superstar if not just a good starter... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

he also played Lance over Henderson so that Pj thing doesn't mean much..  Also Hendo was hurt going into the season and had little  TC practice.. 

But it is obvious Vonleh can play and if he couldn't put him on the court so we can judge his play in actual game time..  You don't know  anything from him being on the bench..  Cliff screwed the pooch and put his personal record over  finding out  and preparing for the future... 

 

Again watch the video  it's obvious this kid has  skill sets that can be developed  into a superstar if not just a good starter... 

It's a highlight video on the Internet. You can find videos that make MJ look like a scrub.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

it's the only video we have due to Clifford's decision... 

it's also funny you mention Fox when comparing Clifford's decision making. Remember when we all got mad that Fox hated the young players brought in towards the end of his tenure and used him as a scapegoat for all the issues the team had?

Turns out our drafts from about 2009-12 were just about the worst top to bottom in team history (maybe one or two players total still in the league) and our cap situation was terrible. Meanwhile, Fox went to the Super Bowl with Peyton Manning (granted, it's Peyton Manning, but a Super Bowl is a Super Bowl.)

I think Clifford is getting too much of the blame here for not being able to put together a decent team with a roster that at the moment is really low on talent. Does he have his flaws? Absolutely. But you'd be hard pressed to find a coach that could have done better given the circumstances last season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"I think we've seen the best Cody will be..."

The dude is fuging 22 years old, and he too has had limited play time.  I don't know what the hell some people's deal is with Zeller, but he showed a lot of promise last season (you know, his 2nd damn season in the league... but yeah, "the best" he will be) until he got injured.

I have no clue how some of you come to the conclusion that a sophomore 22 year old 7ft big man that can somewhat shoot with great athleticism that is still developing is already as good as he's going to be.  Let Cody add a more consistent mid range jumper, a speck of a post game, and passing and he will be a really damn good player.

He's one of the few players we have worth keeping on the team.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


  • PMH4OWPW7JD2TDGWZKTOYL2T3E.jpg

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Boo, the formatting is being a pain in the ass and won't let me move the third video listed under "Q1 12:03 - 3rd & 10 from JAX 41" to under "Q3 04:25 - 3rd & 10 from JAX 14"
    • With there already being quite literally 10+ threads about Bryce I figured there might be a couple of posters that would be interested in talking about another poor performer in Jacksonville: the defense. Morgan made revamping the DL his primary focus this offseason in order to try and fix the historically bad performance that was put on the field last season only for the Jaguars to run for 200yds. With that performance, Evero's defenses in Carolina have now allowed 200+ rushing yards 26 times in 35 games. Even if Etienne's 71yd scamper doesn't happen he would have still averaged 4.8yds a carry.  So why is it all of the same, even with different bodies? I don't know yet. That's why we're doing this. 😛 Something that caught me off guard from Sunday's game was the Jags' success rate on 3rd down. I'm hopefully not the only one that felt like the Jags were converting on 3rd down at will, but after looking at the box score it appears that on 12 attempts they were only able to convert 5 times for a sub-50% conversion rate. How can that be? When Jacksonville needed a first down on third and long they seemed to get it. Wait a second... 3rd and long? Maybe that was why it felt the way that it did: the Jags were 3 for 6 on 3rd and 7+ to go. They were also 2 for 2 on 4th down. Those type of conversions are backbreakers for defenses, so let's take a look at those conversions to see if there's anything we can figure out. On one end, we have a situation where the defense is at an advantage and another where that revamped DL should be able to show it's value.   Q1 13:47 - 4th & 1 from JAX 37 This play felt like a taste of things to come. From their own 37yd line the Jaguars lined up with 2TEs and both WRs to the boundary side. Carolina is in their 3-4 base with a single high safety and showing an over front. It's worth mentioning here that the Jaguars aren't just lined up E-T-G-C-G-T-E... they're lined up T-T-G-C-G-E-E. The Jaguars send Dyami Brown in motion and run the jet sweep to the field side with the two TEs to the right moving out to the right while the rest of the line crashes to the left towards the boundary (and away from where Dyami is running). PJ2 is left unblocked and gets mixed by the fake handoff to the RB. Jaycee and Jackson do their best on the left side vs. the tight ends blocking them while Trevin is in pursuit from behind. Wallace had no idea the jet sweep was happening until it had already happened. He was cheating up and then went left afterwards. Great playcall and design by Coen here. If not for Jaycee knocking Brenton Strange backwards and tripping up Dyami, this might have gone for a lot more. 1A.mp4 1B.mp4   Q1 12:03 - 3rd & 10 from JAX 41 Right after giving up a 4th & 1 the defense gives up another conversion, this time on 3rd & 10. The Jags start come out in the shotgun with the receivers set up in a 2x2 and the RB to TLaw's left. Dyami Brown motions across the formation towards the right side of the field so that the Jags have trips to that side. The Panthers are playing off coverage and are in an over front with two safeties split deep. The ball is snapped aaaaaand... it's cover 3 zone. Panthers are in a dime look with a 3rd safety and Moehrig starts to carry Travis Hunter but doesn't pass him off to Nick Scott. This opens up the spot Moehrig left for Brenton Strange to settle in to catch the ball underneath. Turk Wharton had jumped offsides to start this play as well. Somebody clearly messed up on this play and I think it's Moehrig because I don't think the playcall meant for him to man up on Travis Hunter. The more we do these over the season, the more answers I imagine we'll find as we see repeats. 2a.mp4 2b.mp4 3b.mp4 Q3 04:25 - 3rd & 10 from JAX 14 This and the following offensive drive for the Jaguars effectively killed any chance at trying to catch the Jaguars at 20. Backed up on their own 14yd line on 3rd and long, Jacksonville marches out their 11 personnel while the Panthers have their dime personnel with a third safety. They show an even front and man alignment but with off coverage. Surprisingly, rather than cover-3 we get a cover-6 call. Nick Scott backpedals all of the way from the 26 to the 40 to be the deep half defender as Mike Jackson passes Dyami Brown off to him from the 24 (where the first down marker is). Jackson passed him off because Brenton Strange was coming open underneath to the flat. As soon as TLaw sees the pass off he fires it over to Brown who makes the comfortable catch. Mike Jackson immediately tackles him as Nick Scott hustles over from 10yds away from the play. I think the clear issue here was Scott getting so damn deep. The LOS is the 14, first down at the 24, and he's all the way back at the 40? 3a.mp4   Q4 10:44 - 4th & 1 from CAR 34 The Jags line up with both tight ends inline to the boundary (left) side along with OL6. Nothing fancy here, just a HB dive.  BB3 showed good get off here but the center for JAX did a good job bumping him and climbing to the second level to seal off Moehrig. DB got pushed back a little bit by the LT after bumping into BB3 and the RG did his job in sealing ARob off enough. The Jags won in the trenches... not much else to say here. Moehrig could have started coming downhill a little sooner to try and shoot the gap, maybe? Other than that, ARob winning his match up could've prevented it? Regardless, this sucked because it gave the Jags another set of downs to run the clock down with... you know what? Moehrig should've shot that gap. It's 4th & 1 in the fourth quarter and there's enough time to get two or three possessions. He's opposite of the tight ends and Mike Jackson has 1-on-1 coverage on the outside. Moehrig has to go downhill here. 4a.mp4 4b.mp4 Q4 09:16 - 3rd & 8 from CAR 29 And just like the drive to start the game, the Jaguars end the 3rd quarter and start the 4th with a drive where they convert on 4th & 1 and then 3rd and long on the next set of downs with a long drive that ended in a field goal. Jags are in 11 personnel while the Panthers are in nickel with Scourton + Johnson as the EDGEs. Bunch to the right and who wants to guess the play call by Evero? If you guess cover 3, you win! Coen did, and the Jaguars were able to let Brenton Strange settle in right between Rozeboom + Moehrig for a 10yd gain on 3rd & 8 to keep the chains moving. 5a.mp4 5b.mp4 The conversion rate on 3rd & 7 - 10 in the NFL is 34.42%. Not only did the Jaguars convert half of their 3rd and longs, they also had two drives where they converted not only a 3rd and long a 4th down as well. Their first drive to start the game, a 13 play, 55yd drive that took 6:45 off of the clock (and netted them 3pts) and their third to last drive of the game. That later drive was a killer: 15 plays, 49yds, 8:07 possession time. Those two drives alone drained a total of 14:5, an entire quarter, off of the game clock. They only came out of both drives with field goals, but that's still just not going to be good enough results by the defense help this team win games. Evero's scheme works when the team is ahead and teams have to throw the ball more. In a dirty slugfest though? It's not holding up well at all. Combine that with the Panthers' offense starting slow yet again and this might not get better until the team starts playing more complimentary football. It's only week 1 though and there's a lot of football left to go in the season.
×
×
  • Create New...