How to fix it (Defense)

[koolkatluke]

My question is if things coutinue the way it's going and Fox gets fired. If Cowher is the man to replace him do we have the personal to go to a 3-4? With or without Pep.

[OneBadassCat]

My question is if things coutinue the way it's going and Fox gets fired. If Cowher is the man to replace him do we have the personal to go to a 3-4? With or without Pep.

I think you keep it 4-3. Beason and Davis are playing too well change the scheme entirely. We just have to get the defensive lineman we need.

[monstercat]

The defense just needs to tackle. They have had plenty of opportunities to get off the field on 3rd downs in the last two weeks if the first guy would have just made the tackle. And it's not just Peppers, I've even seen Beason and Thomas Davis miss some tackles so far.

[Khyber53]

Never thought I would say I miss Trgovac, but... I'm beginning to see why Meeks didn't take over for Dungy.

The Tampa-2 Defense is a decade old and everyone has figured out how to attack it. Even if it still had teeth, it is a complicated scheme that requires experience in the system to execute effectively. You can't shift to it quickly and expect a good outcome.

However, it's still worn out and easily picked apart by a team that does its homework. Really, when has anyone feared the Indy defense? Or even Tampa Bays in recent years?

Scrap it and go back to a vanilla defense. 4-3 with bump-and-run coverage, blitz a safety once in a while. You know... the basics, the fundamentals.

And attack the line of scrimmage. Not this flock to the ball crap. I've never seen a team that prides itself in swarm tackling inspire fear in their opponents.

It generally means that you don't trust your players to make head on tackles on their own. Of course, from what we've seen, I wouldn't trust many of them to do so.

[monstercat]

There's nothing wrong with the scheme. This is not strickly a Tampa 2 defense anyway.

[koolkatluke]

There's nothing wrong with the scheme. This is not strickly a Tampa 2 defense anyway.

I agree MC nothing wrong with the scheme when you have a good Dline. Problem is we don't. So Fox having a Defensive back ground should have a way to adapt. So far it's not showing. Plus with Fox having a defensive back ground he should never have a bad tackling team. Every player he has drafted was know in college as a good to great tackler. What happen from them to now?

[Khyber53]

Possibly there's a bunch of guys that are so worried about screwing up a tackle that they end up standing around waiting for some help?

[jpo287]

Point blank, it isn’t the scheme. Transition to the new scheme is a problem, it’s not the problem.

While I rarely disagree with anything you say, I can't help but think you have missed the mark here. The scheme didn't really work in Indy and it certainly doesn't work here. Heck, if DelRio can come in here and get results immediately and then Trgo can come in and get results immediately, than why can't Meeks. It's because the scheme is flawed--simple as that.

Under Mike Trgovac, fundamentals declined pretty much on an annual basis until they were barely there.

Nonsense. That statement is an exaggeration stated simply as a reflection of the popular dislike for Trgo on this board.

In 03 under DelRio, the defense was ranked 3rd best according to Footballoutsiders.com. Under Trgo, they went 11th, 11th and then 1st in 05. Yes, when the numbers are adjusted for opponent's strength, the Panther's defense in 05 was ranked the best in the NFL. The following year, they were ranked the 3rd best again. I don't see how the defense could be ranked that high, that consistently under Trgo with the "fundamentals" declining to the point of barley being there. If you really want to know what the problem is, look no further than the roster. I've argued it before and I'll argue it again: The decline of the defense is simply a reflection of the change in personnel--more specifically, the change in the personnel on the D-line. And to take it a step further, look at the offense.

Fox's offense is still based upon the same damn receivers he had when he first got here! 8 years and they haven't been able to find/develop a single receiver! Fortunately for Fox, Smith is still here and Moose came back. Unfortunately fpr Fox, he hasn't been so lucky with the defense as any Pro Bowl caliber player that was here in 02 either retired or stated they did not want to play in Carolina. Jenkins raised enough of a stink that they practically gave him away and Peppers has been "forced" to stay.

So sorry but I can't help but believe that the defenses problem is simply having the wrong personnel--both players AND coaches. It's as simple as that.

[outlaw4]

How to fix it (Defense)

We can't.

/thread

Honestly, there's only a few things I can think of:

1. KISS (Keep it simple, stupid) - At one point, I saw Beason yell at someone as though they blew their assignment. Don't give the players that can't handle complex assignments much to do.

2. It's the tackling, stupid! - Injuries, my ass. If a player can't tackle, then it's the same effect as not having them active on game day at all. This game could have been very different if we tackled better.

3. It's the offense, stupid! - Bottom line, the defense isn't our strength anymore so let's not keep them out there for more than 30 minutes, okay?

[Snake]

The funny part about all this is that what you said.... is exactly what Fox came with when he took over as a head coach. He said he wanted a good set of Core players that can be physical and practice good fundamentals. We have done none of that in the last few year. I think Fox is burning out as a head coach IMO. Maybe its just time.....

[jramsey4]

Never thought I would say I miss Trgovac, but... I'm beginning to see why Meeks didn't take over for Dungy.

The Tampa-2 Defense is a decade old and everyone has figured out how to attack it. Even if it still had teeth, it is a complicated scheme that requires experience in the system to execute effectively. You can't shift to it quickly and expect a good outcome.

However, it's still worn out and easily picked apart by a team that does its homework. Really, when has anyone feared the Indy defense? Or even Tampa Bays in recent years?

Scrap it and go back to a vanilla defense. 4-3 with bump-and-run coverage, blitz a safety once in a while. You know... the basics, the fundamentals.

And attack the line of scrimmage. Not this flock to the ball crap. I've never seen a team that prides itself in swarm tackling inspire fear in their opponents.

It generally means that you don't trust your players to make head on tackles on their own. Of course, from what we've seen, I wouldn't trust many of them to do so.

Careful some ppl will argue till the cows come about that comment. But I agree there.

[jramsey4]

The funny part about all this is that what you said.... is exactly what Fox came with when he took over as a head coach. He said he wanted a good set of Core players that can be physical and practice good fundamentals. We have done none of that in the last few year. I think Fox is burning out as a head coach IMO. Maybe its just time.....

Funny I remember saying something akin to this oh 9 months ago when we got our ass handed to us by the Cards. I hate being right.

[Mr. Scot]

While I rarely disagree with anything you say, I can't help but think you have missed the mark here. The scheme didn't really work in Indy and it certainly doesn't work here. Heck, if DelRio can come in here and get results immediately and then Trgo can come in and get results immediately, than why can't Meeks. It's because the scheme is flawed--simple as that.

Can't agree. The scheme is widely used for a reason. Mike Tomlin was running a Tampa 2 defense effectively just a few years back when he got hired by the Steelers. Problem is right now we have neither a) enough experience in it to be effective, not the proper players to run it (largely because of the defensive line hole).

Nonsense. That statement is an exaggeration stated simply as a reflection of the popular dislike for Trgo on this board.

In 03 under DelRio, the defense was ranked 3rd best according to Footballoutsiders.com. Under Trgo, they went 11th, 11th and then 1st in 05. Yes, when the numbers are adjusted for opponent's strength, the Panther's defense in 05 was ranked the best in the NFL. The following year, they were ranked the 3rd best again. I don't see how the defense could be ranked that high, that consistently under Trgo with the "fundamentals" declining to the point of barley being there. If you really want to know what the problem is, look no further than the roster. I've argued it before and I'll argue it again: The decline of the defense is simply a reflection of the change in personnel--more specifically, the change in the personnel on the D-line. And to take it a step further, look at the offense.

Rankings are a little deceiving (2006, for one, was an awful year overall) and they don't measure fundamentals.

Crisp technique, solid tackling, disciplined play, these are things you either see - or don't - when you watch a defense. Under Trgovac, we went from being solid tacklers to marginal tacklers to bad tacklers.

And today, we're still at "bad".

Yes, the personnel share the blame, but you have to lay some of it on coaching too.

Fox's offense is still based upon the same damn receivers he had when he first got here! 8 years and they haven't been able to find/develop a single receiver! Fortunately for Fox, Smith is still here and Moose came back. Unfortunately fpr Fox, he hasn't been so lucky with the defense as any Pro Bowl caliber player that was here in 02 either retired or stated they did not want to play in Carolina. Jenkins raised enough of a stink that they practically gave him away and Peppers has been "forced" to stay.

It's not for lack of trying. Drew Carter, Keary Colbert, Keyshawn Johnson, Ryne Robinson, and now Dwayne Jarrett. The team has indeed made an effort, and in the process found a number of guys people thought would be good. But they weren't.

It's at this point that the name of Richard Williamson comes up.

So sorry but I can't help but believe that the defenses problem is simply having the wrong personnel--both players AND coaches. It's as simple as that.

Personnel are part of the problem, but not the whole thing.

Inexperience is a relatively easy thing to fix (reps and games). Likewise, getting a better DT is possible, though difficult.

But if they don't also fix the problems of technique and toughness, none of it will matter.

[2plankingpanther]

I say bench Peppers til he decides to play w/some heart!That goes for others on the D too!